Help me convince my players that the Cleric is cool

[Trainz]

Thayan Menace:

My games always have SOME degrees of railroading (from 5% to 30%). I have imposed many things in the past (that's 20 years of weekly gaming) and not once did a player say "man, that sucks". And I have YET to have a player walk out on me.

So you must be wrong. In my case at least.

BTW, if I created this thread, it's not because my players didn't want to play a female character, and they had no problem with the imposition of the deity. Just the class. Which, is why, I created this tread. To convince my players that playing a cleric is cool. Period.

People (and you) have been quite efficient in that way. And I thank you for that. Anything more, like bringing down my campaign design choices, is off topic.

Thread-jacking if you may. So I would politely ask you to give it a rest, and allow people, if they feel so inclined, to bring up other aspects I can use to "sell" the class to them.

I WILL commit seppuku with my computer mouse if you persist. That'll show you.

 

[Henry]

I WILL commit seppuku with my computer mouse if you persist. That'll show you.

Be sure it's a PS/2, if you do it. Serial adapters tend to get caught in the ribcage when being driven through a human body.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Limitations Can Breed Discontent

Alienating your players by severely limiting their choice of character (i.e., a litmus test for "railroading") will leave you with one of three things:

You will have a table of disinterested gamers who stay because they cannot find another game.

OR ...

You will have a table of resentful friends who feel like you are wasting their time and are actually considering giving up on RPGs.

OR ...

You will have an empty table.

Trainz:

Your players (esp. if they are your friends) have other ways of showing their displeasure besides leaving your game.

Also, if you can assure me that your player is simply peeved about playing a cleric and not concerned about being forced to play a cleric of a specific god, then I will gladly rest my case.

For the record, Ehlonna's domains are: Animal, Good, Plant, & Sun.

Personally, I believe that Sun is a wicked-cool domain (esp. regarding the destruction of undead). Plant is useful, but the others I could take-or-leave.

So, let's say that I was not satisified with a choice of these four domains. In your campaign, I would simply be out of luck ... correct?

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Clerics of Ehlonna Stomp (Or at Least Their Treants Do)

BTW, if I created this thread, it's not because my players didn't want to play a female character, and they had no problem with the imposition of the deity. Just the class. Which, is why, I created this tread. To convince my players that playing a cleric is cool. Period.

People (and you) have been quite efficient in that way. And I thank you for that. Anything more, like bringing down my campaign design choices, is off topic.

You should have called the thread "Help Me Convince my Players that the Cleric of Ehlonna is Cool".

Pardon my confusion.

In this case, I would hype up the sheer destructive power of the Sun domain.

Also, if your campaign includes significant forest activity, then the Plant domain will be super useful. I know I'd dig the prospect of a treant bodyguard if I was a cleric (do not even get me started on the wicked potential of commanding a myconid army).

Plus, if your campaign includes extraplanar evil, then the Good domain (coupled with the right feats) can be a cool choice. After all, nothing says clerical agency like smiting demonic hosts.

Does this help?

 

[ruleslawyer]

Take or leave?

Animal gives you shapechange, my friend. Of course, that comes much later, but still...

Trainz: While I understand your bristling at any hint of a suggestion that you aren't giving the players what they want, do keep in mind that what the Thayan Menace is suggesting is that it may not be the idea of playing a cleric that's turning off your player, but rather the idea of playing such a specific character concept. Make sure that it is only the class at issue that's turning your player off of being a cleric.

Others have elaborated plenty on why clerics rock. To recap:

1) Given the cleric's massive self-buffing capability, especially using Persistent Spell and/or Divine Metamagic, a well-played cleric will be the single most powerful combatant in the party in several cases. In fact, the role of a well-played cleric should NOT be to provide in-combat healing, but rather to kill the party's opponents as fast as possible, as the latter is the far more effective strategy.

2) Downtime healing is the work of wands, not clerics. Your spontaneous cure ability is there for in-combat emergencies, which as I said should be few and far between since you should be killing your foes, not running around healing. Wands and scrolls of CLW are cheap, and can be used by bards, rangers, and druids as well as clerics. Thus, you are NOT obligated to be the party medic.

3) Clerics' spell selection is the best in the game, and only gets better with each splatbook that comes on the market. Look at it this way: You get all spells on the cleric list, which is not much smaller than the sor/wiz list, plus 18 additional spells, for free. Druids, rangers, and paladins have much smaller spell selections, and sorcs and wizards have to pay to get 'em, whether in known spell slots or spellbook costs. In addition, you get every new spell that features on the cleric list or one of your domain lists for free as soon as that spell hits print. That's upwards of 50 spells in Magic of Faerun and maybe 100 or more in the Relics and Rituals books, f'rex.

4) So, you're a cleric of Ehlonna. Some good stuff here. For one thing, the Sun domain is practically de rigeur for any optimized cleric: It has the nifty greater turning ability (bye bye, vampires/ghosts/liches) and some excellent spells. Heat metal! Searing light! Fire seeds! Whooo! Second, IIRC Ehlonna is all about archery, right? Play an elf, take a longbow, and let fly.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Animal Domain Spells & Open Minds

Take or leave?

Animal gives you shapechange, my friend. Of course, that comes much later, but still...

I concede and, unlike many, I am willing to admit that I was wrong to casually downgrade something without fully considering the ramifications.

It is no shame to be bested by a master (bows).

Also, thanks for the support regarding clerical limitations. I'm glad someone else sees things from the player's perspective.

 

[Trainz]

Take or leave?

Animal gives you shapechange, my friend. Of course, that comes much later, but still...

Quite true. Thank you.

Trainz: While I understand your bristling at any hint of a suggestion that you aren't giving the players what they want, do keep in mind that what the Thayan Menace is suggesting is that it may not be the idea of playing a cleric that's turning off your player, but rather the idea of playing such a specific character concept. Make sure that it is only the class at issue that's turning your player off of being a cleric.

OOoooh.... so THAT'S what he meant.

I know my players quite well thank you and yes, it is with the cleric class that they have a problem. I have asked them to do a few things with their characters before (pick a feat, boost a skill) and they have no problem following my drift. They are not so insecure with their playing as to balk at any demand of their Dungeon Master.

[Pulp Fiction]Now. Pretty please. With a cherry on top. Stop effing assuming I don't know what I'm doing.[/Pulp Fiction] :grin:

I really appreciate the community's help, and sometimes in the past they have flagged something in my game that after consideration I decided to adjust and made me a better DM. I am not so full of myself that I don't think there is room for amelioration. But, believe you me, this is not one such instance.

MAN.

Now that that's out of the way, I want to tank you (and Thayan Menace) for the great recap and insight you guys just gave me. I do not want to force my players into playing this cleric (which, is why, I created this thread: to encourage them into going along with my request, not bend their arm).

So, you see, I'm not that fascist all-controlling DM some of you might have thought I am. In fact, I let my players do whatever the hell they feel like doing, even making stuff up.

For example, in that very game, one player want's to play a rogue character, but the campaign is very undead heavy. So I will have him be able to be somewhat useful (outside of the regular core rules) when there will be such an encounter.

The mouse is only two inches away from my stomach. I'm warning you.

 

[taliesin15]

Here's one suggestion: ignore the deities suggested! I think clerics of deities from the "real" world (i.e. Norse, Finnish, Greek, etc.) are much more interest to play and DM; unless of course some DM (or you yourselfas a DM hopefully) has come up with a deity or religion or whatever that's much more engaging to some of the frankly boring and cliche ridden deities discussed in the 3.0Edition Player's Handbook (and Deities and Demigods).

 

[taliesin15]

another suggestion: an alternate d20 system where the healing is actually of a highly sexual nature, as it were...fighters having wounds go to the local brothel, er..."Temple of Venus"... in town to get their wounds healed...or of course they have a lovely female or lithe and willing male cleric there to get them back up to fluff, er...snuff...

 

[Sejs]

Yup, Ehlonna is a forest something. Don't know the domains so it would be hard to get it 'tricked out'

Yeah, Ehlonna is that -other- core nature diety. You know, the one that's nowhere near as cool as Obad-Hai because A) she's just about forrests rather than all of nature, and B) she like.. cares, and stuff. Nature gods arn't supposed to care! Nature doesn't care! So why in turn should its representative diety care?

It just ain't right, I tell you.