Help me "get" Forged in the Dark.

[Fenris-77]

Is a desperate consequence then a fight starts (for example) or harm is done (the assumption is that a fight starts and the PCs get beat because they failed)? I guess what I am asking is how granular is it?

Again, just for comparison sake:

In D&D or Savage Worlds or whatever, the PCs would try a Persuasion roll and if they failed we would roll initiative. If it is not that, what is it in Band?

There isn't really a good answer here because we're zoomed out so far and speaking hypothetically. The trick is to keep yourself laser focused on the now. This specific situation with this specific set of negotiated possibilities and that specific roll. Depending on the details, failure at desperate position could be immediate harm (the deserter loses his nut and stabs you) or a worsening overall situation, or any number of things really. It's all about specific context and the GM-player negotiation of action/consequence about that specific context.

The a large extent though, generally speaking, the consequences flow from the specific goal of the stated action. So a 'talking' solution might produce very different consequences depending on whether the player was trying to get the Deserter to change his mind full stop, or accept a bribe, or even to try and drive a wedge between the deserter and his gang of thugs. The specifics are the key.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

That makes sense. Don't assume a fight -- just assume the PCs need to do SOMETHING in regards to the deserter and his gang. That's the obstacle. Encourage the players to come up with something interesting and thematically appropriate but not "direct" them. I imagine that can take some work with players transitioning from more straightforward RPGs.

You might not need to encourage them, necessarily, at least once they've gotten the hang of FitD. But definitely useful in an intro or session zero to encourage players to do whatever they think makes sense, for their character, for the setting, etc., in any given moment. FitD is a system where it can be useful to punch a guy in the face with a quick jab, instead of always taking out your sword and trying to hack his head off. Or tackling someone—you can just do it, no grappling contest or subsystem necessary! Basically, if they think of something that a character in a book or movie would do, but most RPGs would discourage, because of the rules, here they can do what the movie or novel character would do.

 

[Reynard]

You might not need to encourage them, necessarily, at least once they've gotten the hang of FitD. But definitely useful in an intro or session zero to encourage players to do whatever they think makes sense, for their character, for the setting, etc., in any given moment. FitD is a system where it can be useful to punch a guy in the face with a quick jab, instead of always taking out your sword and trying to hack his head off. Or tackling someone—you can just do it, no grappling contest or subsystem necessary! Basically, if they think of something that a character in a book or movie would do, but most RPGs would discourage, because of the rules, here they can do what the movie or novel character would do.

I think I am starting to understand the appeal from that perspective. When people used the term "fiction first" or "story game" I kind of always imagined or inserted "telling a story" which I don't like -- but I think it is more "it is still emergent and improvisational, but it inherently makes sense in the fictional context because of the way it is framed." Is that right-ish?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Actually in Band, the GM does prepare missions. One of the GM Duties is “Generate Missions”. There are charts and you’re meant to roll on them to determine the nature of eacb mission, the number of missions that are available, and the main elements.

Once all that is set, the missions are presented to the group. The Commander then has to choose a Primary and Secondary mission, and which to ignore.

It’s definitely different than standard Blades in that regard.

Right, nothing I said disputed that. The generation is very light prep. It's meant to be thematic, but it doesn't turn missions in prepped adventures, it just provides some structure.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Clocks are my next area of questions:

First, are they always open? Do players know the state of all the clocks that are in play?

Second, are they "hit points?" By that I mean, the book seems to suggest that the undead dragon doesn't have stats, but defeating it is a clock and if you don't fill it up before it fills up yours(?) you lose and suffer undead dragon consequences? Is that right?

Everything is in the open.

 

[Reynard]

Everything is in the open.

I think this is a good example of how it appears your perspective on FitD games is a little different than some others in the thread. That's not saying that I don't appreciate your input for perspective, just that it can be a little jarring compared to some things @hawkeyefan and @Grendel_Khan have said.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think this is a good example of how it appears your perspective on FitD games is a little different than some others in the thread. That's not saying that I don't appreciate your input for perspective, just that it can be a little jarring compared to some things @hawkeyefan and @Grendel_Khan have said.

To be fair, @Ovinomancer is quite correct, generally speaking. Clocks are in the open in almost every instance. Individual GMs and some hacks might decide to change that, but it is the usual case and also how I run my FitD stuff.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I think this is a good example of how it appears your perspective on FitD games is a little different than some others in the thread. That's not saying that I don't appreciate your input for perspective, just that it can be a little jarring compared to some things @hawkeyefan and @Grendel_Khan have said.

Hidden information does nothing except act as a tool to say no that the players cannot anticipate. That violates tge agenda and principles of play. That you can do this, or that others suggest it might be okay, doesn't change this. If you're asking how it's supposed to work, there's no hidden information. Otherwise, you're not playing to find out because someone already knows.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

I think I am starting to understand the appeal from that perspective. When people used the term "fiction first" or "story game" I kind of always imagined or inserted "telling a story" which I don't like -- but I think it is more "it is still emergent and improvisational, but it inherently makes sense in the fictional context because of the way it is framed." Is that right-ish?

That's exactly right. And I think having a very strong common sense of the fiction is crucial. Like in something like Star Wars, where everyone who's consumed at least a few of the movies

-Knows basically what a lightsaber can do.

-Is familiar with the general tech level.

-Understands the tone and pace.

-Has tropes they can fall back on.

-Hopefully realizes that part of the setting is to make up and add crazy, unexpected things to the setting, but in moderation.

So, to me, FitD is pretty perfect for Star Wars, and vice versa, because when it's time for players to come up with actions from a theoretically infinite array of options, they kind of get what makes sense and what doesn't. Likewise, a GM having to improvise has some handholds. And when it comes to both players and the GM agreeing about the consequences of a given action, that's easier than in a setting that's harder to wrap your head around, or when where there's no established tone, just whatever happens in the game happens.

I honestly think that one of the reasons some people bounce off Blades in the Dark is because its setting, while truly awesome, isn't intuitive. It's very unique, but for some (like me) a little too unique at first. Until you fully absorb the setting and tone, how do you know what's a viable action to take, and what sort of consequences the GM might give you (the GM will tell you, of course, but reducing that uncertainty and back-and-forth is really key to making it all flow naturally, I think). Band of Blades' setting is more intuitive, I think, and so is Scum and Villainy's, even though, for all the reasons stated above, I prefer using it for Star Wars. As a newbie to PbtA and FitD I needed to figure out that idea of "improvise, but it has to make sense in the fiction" in the context of fiction I really understood deep in my bones (and that I personally think has always been done dirty by trad games) before any of it made sense. Reading Apocalypse World didn't do it for me, and neither did Blades. I needed Star Wars via Scum and Villainy. But I'm dumb that way.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Clocks are my next area of questions:

First, are they always open? Do players know the state of all the clocks that are in play?

Second, are they "hit points?" By that I mean, the book seems to suggest that the undead dragon doesn't have stats, but defeating it is a clock and if you don't fill it up before it fills up yours(?) you lose and suffer undead dragon consequences? Is that right?

So, a clock does some similar things, but it's isn't really analogous to hitpoints. When you tick a clock, something in the fiction has changed that reflects that tick. The clock is a way to help measure and gauge the changes needed to get to a conclusion. In the case of a combatant that maybe has a 4 tick clock to be defeated, when the PCs take an action and succeed, they've said what they're doing. The GM's job is to tick that clock according to the effect (severity in BoB?) and then say how what the PCs did has changed the fiction to show that they've made progress. For example, hypothetically, if a PC leaps at an undead armored enemy and attacks with their sword, and gets a clean success on a normal effect, that's normally going to be 2 ticks on that clock. But you don't do just that, you also describe how that attack has changed the situation -- in this case you could describe how the attack hits on the edge of the breastplate, and snaps the rotten straps there, tearing it loose and opening the target up to a clean blow, you've done that job.

Everything changes the fiction. Success changes it. Failure changes it. Clocks are there to provide a pacing mechanism to the changes, so you don't go too far or not far enough.