Help me make AC better!

[Sir Brennen]

If i went with variable DR in DnD, I would double the dice used for Iron heros. Right now it makes armor half as effective.

That's why I suggested halving the damage which falls in the Touch-AC-but-not-Full-AC range.

Note that I don't think AE020704 is actually ditching the AC bonus of armor as IH does. If he keeps any DR against a hit which equals or exceeds Full AC, well, that's just gravy for the characters.

 

[AE020704]

...I don't think AE020704 is actually ditching the AC bonus of armor...

That's right - I merely want a way to signify impacts on armour. Which is why non-lethal damage is probably the way to go.

EDIT: Oh, and no, the DR would NOT be applied to hits exceeding the targets full AC.

 

[IcyCool]

Makes AC worse, and adds needless complexity to combat. If it ain't broke...

You might want to look at the Unearthed Arcana "Armor as DR" rules in order to do what you want.

 

[Spatzimaus]

In the vein of "armor as DR" systems:

My group's playtesting a new semi-DR system now, as an extension of our Exotic Material system posted here. It's a lot like the system some have suggested, where part of each armor's AC is turned into DR, although we use a 2:1 conversion (1 AC = 2 DR) and it's not linear.

The idea is that each armor is made up of two components (Primary and Secondary), each of which provides a little DR and maybe a little AC. "Soft" armors (leather) are purely DR (they don't prevent a hit from happening, they just mitigate its effects); "Flexible" armors (chain) have even more DR and a little AC, and "Hard" armors (plate) are mostly AC with only a little DR.

So, Full Plate (H/H) goes from 8 AC to (6 AC + 4 DR), Leather (S/S) goes from 2 AC to no AC but 4 DR, Chainmail (F/F) ends up with 2 AC and a whopping 7 DR, while a Breastplate (H/S) has a comparable 3 AC + 5 DR.

Now, I'm tempted to add the Subdual damage thing people have mentioned, but I just have to figure out how to fit it in without making everything way too complicated.

 

[AE020704]

You might want to look at the Unearthed Arcana "Armor as DR" rules in order to do what you want.

I don't want armour as DR though, that's the point. It's just ironing out an idea for some rules to demonstrate that when something beats your Touch AC, you've actually been hit.

I think I'll handle it thusly:
An attack that beats Touch AC, but not Full AC, deals subdual damage subject to DR of(armour + items AC)2 / -. Shield AC is applied to your Touch AC, but NOT included in the calculation for the DR.

It looks complicated, but stat it out on your character sheet, and it doesn't slow things down appreciably, yet manages to add a nice little bit of realism. It also doesn't make things all THAT much more dangerous, except at higher levels. A PC in mundane Full Plate would need to be hit for more than 16 damage to really feel the CLANG. That's just not likely to happen at low levels.

 

[Li Shenron]

Yes, I'd considered something along these lines at one point but, as you can see, it gets frightfully complex, and serves only to bog things down. I'm tempted to keep Shield AC as a bonus to Touch AC, for the sake of simplicity.

Agree.

 

[Darklone]

Could someone who knows it better post the Conan d20 AC system? It rocked IIRC, yet you shouldn't forget that weapon damage in that system is higher (and nearly all classes get Greater Spring attack).

 

[Sravoff]

I don't want armour as DR though, that's the point. It's just ironing out an idea for some rules to demonstrate that when something beats your Touch AC, you've actually been hit.

This is going to damage PC's alot more than NPC's. As per the DMG, anything that gives the undergood an edge, generally spells bad luck for the PC's. Even if that is a bit more random. Under their "defense roll" variant, that is the first warning. Overall, the PC's will be hurt more by any changes like this.

If you were to implement this rule, I would use full AC=DR/-. That way, its stays helpful as levels increase. A couple of points would be alright at low levels, but at higher levels, the DR wouldn't help much, and would make Dex based fighters alot stronger. Due to the fact that they will be missed completely more often.

Also, are magic bonus going to go straight over as well? I can't remember if deflection mods add to touch AC, I would guess they did. If that is the case, expect PC's and NPC's to spend more on deflection AC bonus items. Since any one would prefer to be hit less, than dealt less damage.

Too offset the increase damaged taken, you may want to give everyone a class defense bonus, that adds to their touch AC, just to balance it out a little bit. Perhaps a system for dealing extra damage if you exceed the opponents AC by enough.

That being said, expect dex based fighters to excel where your armored tanks used to hold the line. And expect deflection bonus item's prices to skyrocket.

-Sravoff

 

[AE020704]

Looking at the responses, and thinking about it a bit harder, I think it would be best to just drop the idea as a whole, unfortunately. Basically, there's no way to apply it that would be applicable at both low and high levels.

DR as full AC would negate the issue entirely at low levels, even for a lightly armoured character (DR of, say, 12/- is only going to be an issue if a greataxe-wielding minotaur hits you, and nothing's going to bypass my current low-levelled tank's 26/-). But maybe that's how it should be...

DR as anything less than full AC is going to mean high-level PCs dropping like flies. Literally.

If I run a Grim 'n' Gritty, truly lethal game, I might resurrect the idea. Otherwise...I think it'll have to stay on hold for a while.

Thanks, ENners!

 

[Spatzimaus]

DR as anything less than full AC is going to mean high-level PCs dropping like flies. Literally.

Only if you trade it 1-to-1. In the new system my group is using, it's 2:1 at low levels, scaling up to ~4:1 at the high end. At high level, trading 3 or 4 points of AC for ~15 points of DR isn't a bad exchange, even with the presence of 10d6 Sneak Attacks.
And adding 10-15 DR that someone can't bypass easily makes a HUGE difference. The fighters can Power Attack to make up some of the difference, or depend more on crits, and weapon enchantments will become more important. But armor no longer becomes negligible.

I think I'll post what we came up with a bit later; we're still playtesting it, and could use some feedback.