First off the WOTC adventures that I have played H1-3 are good but for all the reasons mentioned above, not great. I own every adventure (4E & actually 3E, 3.5E) you've ever published, and I would say at least 90% of all 3rd Party adventures for all three editions, I've read them all.
My group play via maptools, it's the only game I can get in Grimsby, actually there is an official D&D club but they wont touch 4e, me I'm sold- from a DMs perspective it's much easier to run and just as enjoyable- thanks for that.
I initially ran Keep on the Shadowfell with a group but had to abandon it, mainly because of its structure (combat slog) and failure to excite the players. We all stopped playing 4e...
I picked up Goodman Games Sellswords of Punjar, tried again, and they loved it- why?
It's set in a city so the players can escape the dungeon and go and interact with others, advance their character stories and/or plot at any time, subject to the constraints of narrative of course but- no slog!
The bad guys were all a little different, as were the settings and interactions available- first up a trapped and locked gate,, and plenty of atmos...
“A rusted iron gate bars entrance to the alley. Over ten feet in height, the gate is topped by leering gargoyles and sharp spikes. The gate is secured with a rusted lock, cast in the face of a snarling devil. A trail of stinking sewage runs down the center of the alley, seeping past your boots and staining everything it touches.”
The gate has two traps on it, and a difficult lock- and the traps have been thought out, a hand-catcher, and spikes that fire up if a PC tries to climb it. Not a rolling ball then... (see Kobold Halls and H2).
And for those that can't get through the gate then five minutes in and the players are shimmying over wet rooftops- downloadable map available, out of their element and doing something different already, something that makes them think that they're adventurers. Particularly if they're on their first adventure.
The first encounter proper is a bunch of guards (I of course gave them characters) and on call a pair of Toughs- who instantly became dashing swordsmen, and offer easy roleplay opportunities. They're humans (not Kobolds as in H1), which makes them infinitely easier to engage in and with, particularly for neophytes, and therefore create an immersive environment..
Around the corner from the guards...
Grime and mud suck at your boots. A foul green miasma hangs in the night air, swirling about your feet. Large rats, covered in boils and weeping sores, hiss and retreat deeper into the alley.
And...
The fetid mist causes torches and lanterns to sputter and flare. Cast off by the poisonous fountain at the end of the alley (area 1–3), the mist clings to the skin and fills the air with the sharp taste of copper. Where it beads, the mist discolors the skin and burns holes in clothing.
Until the adventurers reach...
A decaying fountain stands at the end of the alley. Topped by a mold-covered figure, the basin overflows with rust-red water. Filth slithers down the side of the stained fountain, where it collects in a pool before worming its way down the alley.
The statue of course proves to be Orcus (with a nice handout to boot), it could be anyone, but if you're going to start a campaign- why not take a big bite, who knows where it may end (see H1 to E3).
Next up an uppity Thief who smart players swiftly realise is better off keeping alive, which leads to the players trying to capture and not kill him- he has a story, and more roleplay ensues. He's also situated in a shop full of all manner of weird and wonderful stuff (from an Orc Skull with gold teeth to a +2 Cloak of Resistance- there's a table, who doesn't smile a little when they see a table, for heaven sake; item is 7 is “A pair of leather shoes. Hidden in the sole of the right shoe is a set of masterwork thieves’ tools. Hidden in the sole of the left shoe is a single worn platinum piece. Minted in a by-gone age, the platinum piece is worth 100 gp to a collector.” The person who wrote this (Harley Stroh) clearly loves the game, and has ideas to burn- a DMs delight.
The Thief also guards a large chest with multiple traps, a code book and lots of nice little bits of treasure- great. He also advances the story. The Thief however calls on the Dogbrothers, a bunch of mangy mercenaries lead by Irocar (from memory).
Which leads to a pumped up villain, and his cohort, calling out the PCs- bragging and the like- excellent character, my players reduced him to tears- begging to be spared and calling for his mother. Result- Irocar becomes a recurring villain- shamed by the adventurers, he plots his revenge. Not before advancing the narrative a little more.
Also in the area a Otyugh, admittedly only a little one, but a flailing terror that bathes in poo, I have to admit that Otyugh's are one of my favourite monsters, personally I think they are misunderstood and mainly just want to make friends with other poo producing species. But first adventure, second room... what a beauty. And if that's not enough for you Otyugh Grubs, admittedly they're only crawling minion horrors with not much in the way of offence or defence but...
As far as story, atmosphere and all round attention to detail, Sellswords has it in spades.
Also the combat encounters are short, or long if you want them to be- just drag the next bunch into the fight; in short they are easy to shape.
Next some emptyish rooms- more traps, a little more incidental treasure and plenty more in the way of mood and atmosphere, rooms players creep into not sure what's going to happen next, thoroughly investigate because it looks so tempting... because they're immersed, and don't mind that there's nothing much for them here because it pays to take a breath between acts of destruction. I could go on, find a copy of Todorov's Three Act Structure, point out the wiggly line (like a rollercoaster) that swoops and dives, only to climb again as the tension rises some more.
Next Madame Zeb a Tiefling Witch and a pair of Eunuchs, how about that- bloated fighting Eunuch's, what's not to like- and her room is full of all manner of strange junk; a scythe made from the fused bones of a Osyluth, an egg- can't remember of what; you get my drift...
And on it goes.
In contrast Shadowfell is just a series of encounters, mostly combat, with little option other than to fight- even for the roleplayers- Kobold/Hobgoblins/etc. munchkins that... attack. Nice maps, good quality finish, high production values but for the newbie fresh to the sport surely you've left the story out, the emotive/atmospheric language, the quirky tables, the crude hand outs- the attention to detail.
Sellswords is easy as to re-order or re-write- for those Dms who are telling a different campaign story, the level of detail- nudging the DM constantly with excellent ways in which to foreshadow things to come, plant clues or strange campaign spanning artefacts et al, create recurring villains; all in general to create an immersive environment.
Thunderspire was okay, memorable for the cool fights, some of the plot was meh- the note to the Tiefling ambush particularly was pretty dire, I can't imagine many parties were sold by this, it's just... lame.
The Pyramid, once again some great combat, but... see all of the above.
To summarise-
They don't join up- plot and story is secondary to cool (sometimes) combat.
They're a grind, a real grind in places, with very little opportunity to do anything other than battle the next monster that's standing in line.
There's a lack of an authorial voice, someone with a good idea (or thirty), who wants to create an immersive environment full of weird and wonderful flavour- and thereby fuel the DM and players imagination.
The two books (and no PDFs for those of us reduced to Maptools) are unwieldy at times, and sometimes more than a little confusing.
Personally I'd pay more money for better content, I know you're selling to everyone and so you have to sacrifice some of the flavour for a clearer labelling of what does what but you seem overly concerned with mechanical things at times, and less inclined to tell a story.
For me story is everything.
Finally, I want to tell you why I still buy and consume every adventure you publish, and hopefully will go on to play each and every one of them.
In my campaign at present the players are in the Pyramid of Shadows. They're in there because the city of Fallcrest- over which the Pyramid hangs in the sky, is shrouded by dense mists and fogs straight from the Shadowfell, is also overun by massive vines and plants ripped from the Feywild.
The citizens of the city have disappeared, initially grasped and grappled by the fogs and voracious plants- they have faded away, their life force somehow consumed, they have been taken- to who knows where.
My players emerged to find all this, from battles deep in the sewers of Fallcrest with a foul aboleth (Goodman Games Scenario Thrones of Fallcrest- beautiful) who was content only to buy some time for Karavakos to weave his foul magic.
My players were alone in the city, save of course for the giant beasts- mixtures of Fey and Shadow that too have come to their city. Alone save for Nimozaran the Green, who has managed to convince them that Fallcrest is doomed should the players not do something about it. Nimozaran in his wild youth fashioned the Pyramid, an extra-dimensional prison, with the help of the Tannheim Dwarves (see later).
And so they've headed into the Pyramid, Vyrellis (part crystal ball, part snow globe) turns out to be Eruan the Eladrin Wizard's (PC) mum (he knew this was on the cards- none of the other players did). Vyrellis constantly berates him for his sloppy appearance, and uncouth ways- compared to that nice Mr. Lucan. Lucan is our absolute scoundrel Rogue (PC). Eruan knows what his mum is like and is nervously carrying his mothers head around like it is a ticking bomb (Vyrellis defended the Feywild from Karavakos' demon army but in the process took advantage and slew many Eladrin families to advance her claim to the Throne of Fellscarp (the mirror of Fallcrest in the Feywild)).
The players are also equipped with a list of known inhabitants of the Pyramid (bad guys imprisoned within the Pyramid at the behest of the Thrones of Fallcrest & Fellscarp), they've been doing their homework- why because Karavakos has been sending out monsters from the Pyramid to battle our heroes for quite some time- about 10-15 sessions in fact. The entire plot, and their Paragon levels (the PCs entered the Pyramid on level 10- levelling up is fantastically smooth in 4E- thanks again) has been pointing to this since they started on the road. They've been finding Karavakos shaped clues- visions brought forth by the Rod of Ruin, scribbled notes- mostly gibberish, whispered last words of dying villains, promises of vengeance from spittle-flecked lips since the game started.
They've hated Karavakos for ages- every bad thing.... Karavakos.
But that's not all, Farkill our Dwarven Priest has recently started to encounter the ghostly remains of those he betrayed, way back in his past, who as a consequence of his betrayal were slaughtered by aberrations flung from the Far Realm. The Pyramid is a nexus, a cross-over point, everywhere and nowhere- strange things happen here- the dead visit, the future comes calling, the past repeats its mistakes.
Rock our Dwarven Fighter, and the other PCs, watched a flickery vision of a hooded dwarf crouch on the floor, insert something into thin air, look very nervous and repeat the phrase “Help me Arr-Zero-Cee-Kay. You're my only hope.” Rock in adventures past discovered that his mum and dad are not his mum and dad at all, and that he was delivered to the childless Dwarven couple by a Tannheim Dwarf (an Inventor clan) called Creator Klum. He later learned that Creator Klum invented things called the Dwarforged- mechanical dwarves. He later learned that further prototype Dwarforged were in fact incredibly real... and if that wasn't enough he learned that Creator Klum's last project was called R0. Next to the R0, Creator Klum's initials R0-CK. That made him real worried.
Not as much though as when he found R1-CK sometime later.
All my players, and every major inhabitant of the Pyramid have their stories.
Gharash Vren (leader of the bandits in the Pyramid) and Farkill have a lot in common, Gharash Vren's backstory is equally terrible- a similar act of betrayal.
The Parsley Prophet... I could go on but my players may read this and they're only on the first level of the Pyramid, and there's wedges of stuff to come- I've had to do all the spadework however, which I don't mind of course, it's just... well, a little more- plot, story, characters that come alive and have purpose, detail (jumping off points), a fantasy reality in which cool fights are cooler because the players have had to use much more than their swords & spells to get there.
Sorry there's a lot of this.
Thanks for an amazing game, the time and the patience to read this, and most of all asking me (us) what we thought.
LOVE
My group play via maptools, it's the only game I can get in Grimsby, actually there is an official D&D club but they wont touch 4e, me I'm sold- from a DMs perspective it's much easier to run and just as enjoyable- thanks for that.
I initially ran Keep on the Shadowfell with a group but had to abandon it, mainly because of its structure (combat slog) and failure to excite the players. We all stopped playing 4e...
I picked up Goodman Games Sellswords of Punjar, tried again, and they loved it- why?
It's set in a city so the players can escape the dungeon and go and interact with others, advance their character stories and/or plot at any time, subject to the constraints of narrative of course but- no slog!
The bad guys were all a little different, as were the settings and interactions available- first up a trapped and locked gate,, and plenty of atmos...
“A rusted iron gate bars entrance to the alley. Over ten feet in height, the gate is topped by leering gargoyles and sharp spikes. The gate is secured with a rusted lock, cast in the face of a snarling devil. A trail of stinking sewage runs down the center of the alley, seeping past your boots and staining everything it touches.”
The gate has two traps on it, and a difficult lock- and the traps have been thought out, a hand-catcher, and spikes that fire up if a PC tries to climb it. Not a rolling ball then... (see Kobold Halls and H2).
And for those that can't get through the gate then five minutes in and the players are shimmying over wet rooftops- downloadable map available, out of their element and doing something different already, something that makes them think that they're adventurers. Particularly if they're on their first adventure.
The first encounter proper is a bunch of guards (I of course gave them characters) and on call a pair of Toughs- who instantly became dashing swordsmen, and offer easy roleplay opportunities. They're humans (not Kobolds as in H1), which makes them infinitely easier to engage in and with, particularly for neophytes, and therefore create an immersive environment..
Around the corner from the guards...
Grime and mud suck at your boots. A foul green miasma hangs in the night air, swirling about your feet. Large rats, covered in boils and weeping sores, hiss and retreat deeper into the alley.
And...
The fetid mist causes torches and lanterns to sputter and flare. Cast off by the poisonous fountain at the end of the alley (area 1–3), the mist clings to the skin and fills the air with the sharp taste of copper. Where it beads, the mist discolors the skin and burns holes in clothing.
Until the adventurers reach...
A decaying fountain stands at the end of the alley. Topped by a mold-covered figure, the basin overflows with rust-red water. Filth slithers down the side of the stained fountain, where it collects in a pool before worming its way down the alley.
The statue of course proves to be Orcus (with a nice handout to boot), it could be anyone, but if you're going to start a campaign- why not take a big bite, who knows where it may end (see H1 to E3).
Next up an uppity Thief who smart players swiftly realise is better off keeping alive, which leads to the players trying to capture and not kill him- he has a story, and more roleplay ensues. He's also situated in a shop full of all manner of weird and wonderful stuff (from an Orc Skull with gold teeth to a +2 Cloak of Resistance- there's a table, who doesn't smile a little when they see a table, for heaven sake; item is 7 is “A pair of leather shoes. Hidden in the sole of the right shoe is a set of masterwork thieves’ tools. Hidden in the sole of the left shoe is a single worn platinum piece. Minted in a by-gone age, the platinum piece is worth 100 gp to a collector.” The person who wrote this (Harley Stroh) clearly loves the game, and has ideas to burn- a DMs delight.
The Thief also guards a large chest with multiple traps, a code book and lots of nice little bits of treasure- great. He also advances the story. The Thief however calls on the Dogbrothers, a bunch of mangy mercenaries lead by Irocar (from memory).
Which leads to a pumped up villain, and his cohort, calling out the PCs- bragging and the like- excellent character, my players reduced him to tears- begging to be spared and calling for his mother. Result- Irocar becomes a recurring villain- shamed by the adventurers, he plots his revenge. Not before advancing the narrative a little more.
Also in the area a Otyugh, admittedly only a little one, but a flailing terror that bathes in poo, I have to admit that Otyugh's are one of my favourite monsters, personally I think they are misunderstood and mainly just want to make friends with other poo producing species. But first adventure, second room... what a beauty. And if that's not enough for you Otyugh Grubs, admittedly they're only crawling minion horrors with not much in the way of offence or defence but...
As far as story, atmosphere and all round attention to detail, Sellswords has it in spades.
Also the combat encounters are short, or long if you want them to be- just drag the next bunch into the fight; in short they are easy to shape.
Next some emptyish rooms- more traps, a little more incidental treasure and plenty more in the way of mood and atmosphere, rooms players creep into not sure what's going to happen next, thoroughly investigate because it looks so tempting... because they're immersed, and don't mind that there's nothing much for them here because it pays to take a breath between acts of destruction. I could go on, find a copy of Todorov's Three Act Structure, point out the wiggly line (like a rollercoaster) that swoops and dives, only to climb again as the tension rises some more.
Next Madame Zeb a Tiefling Witch and a pair of Eunuchs, how about that- bloated fighting Eunuch's, what's not to like- and her room is full of all manner of strange junk; a scythe made from the fused bones of a Osyluth, an egg- can't remember of what; you get my drift...
And on it goes.
In contrast Shadowfell is just a series of encounters, mostly combat, with little option other than to fight- even for the roleplayers- Kobold/Hobgoblins/etc. munchkins that... attack. Nice maps, good quality finish, high production values but for the newbie fresh to the sport surely you've left the story out, the emotive/atmospheric language, the quirky tables, the crude hand outs- the attention to detail.
Sellswords is easy as to re-order or re-write- for those Dms who are telling a different campaign story, the level of detail- nudging the DM constantly with excellent ways in which to foreshadow things to come, plant clues or strange campaign spanning artefacts et al, create recurring villains; all in general to create an immersive environment.
Thunderspire was okay, memorable for the cool fights, some of the plot was meh- the note to the Tiefling ambush particularly was pretty dire, I can't imagine many parties were sold by this, it's just... lame.
The Pyramid, once again some great combat, but... see all of the above.
To summarise-
They don't join up- plot and story is secondary to cool (sometimes) combat.
They're a grind, a real grind in places, with very little opportunity to do anything other than battle the next monster that's standing in line.
There's a lack of an authorial voice, someone with a good idea (or thirty), who wants to create an immersive environment full of weird and wonderful flavour- and thereby fuel the DM and players imagination.
The two books (and no PDFs for those of us reduced to Maptools) are unwieldy at times, and sometimes more than a little confusing.
Personally I'd pay more money for better content, I know you're selling to everyone and so you have to sacrifice some of the flavour for a clearer labelling of what does what but you seem overly concerned with mechanical things at times, and less inclined to tell a story.
For me story is everything.
Finally, I want to tell you why I still buy and consume every adventure you publish, and hopefully will go on to play each and every one of them.
In my campaign at present the players are in the Pyramid of Shadows. They're in there because the city of Fallcrest- over which the Pyramid hangs in the sky, is shrouded by dense mists and fogs straight from the Shadowfell, is also overun by massive vines and plants ripped from the Feywild.
The citizens of the city have disappeared, initially grasped and grappled by the fogs and voracious plants- they have faded away, their life force somehow consumed, they have been taken- to who knows where.
My players emerged to find all this, from battles deep in the sewers of Fallcrest with a foul aboleth (Goodman Games Scenario Thrones of Fallcrest- beautiful) who was content only to buy some time for Karavakos to weave his foul magic.
My players were alone in the city, save of course for the giant beasts- mixtures of Fey and Shadow that too have come to their city. Alone save for Nimozaran the Green, who has managed to convince them that Fallcrest is doomed should the players not do something about it. Nimozaran in his wild youth fashioned the Pyramid, an extra-dimensional prison, with the help of the Tannheim Dwarves (see later).
And so they've headed into the Pyramid, Vyrellis (part crystal ball, part snow globe) turns out to be Eruan the Eladrin Wizard's (PC) mum (he knew this was on the cards- none of the other players did). Vyrellis constantly berates him for his sloppy appearance, and uncouth ways- compared to that nice Mr. Lucan. Lucan is our absolute scoundrel Rogue (PC). Eruan knows what his mum is like and is nervously carrying his mothers head around like it is a ticking bomb (Vyrellis defended the Feywild from Karavakos' demon army but in the process took advantage and slew many Eladrin families to advance her claim to the Throne of Fellscarp (the mirror of Fallcrest in the Feywild)).
The players are also equipped with a list of known inhabitants of the Pyramid (bad guys imprisoned within the Pyramid at the behest of the Thrones of Fallcrest & Fellscarp), they've been doing their homework- why because Karavakos has been sending out monsters from the Pyramid to battle our heroes for quite some time- about 10-15 sessions in fact. The entire plot, and their Paragon levels (the PCs entered the Pyramid on level 10- levelling up is fantastically smooth in 4E- thanks again) has been pointing to this since they started on the road. They've been finding Karavakos shaped clues- visions brought forth by the Rod of Ruin, scribbled notes- mostly gibberish, whispered last words of dying villains, promises of vengeance from spittle-flecked lips since the game started.
They've hated Karavakos for ages- every bad thing.... Karavakos.
But that's not all, Farkill our Dwarven Priest has recently started to encounter the ghostly remains of those he betrayed, way back in his past, who as a consequence of his betrayal were slaughtered by aberrations flung from the Far Realm. The Pyramid is a nexus, a cross-over point, everywhere and nowhere- strange things happen here- the dead visit, the future comes calling, the past repeats its mistakes.
Rock our Dwarven Fighter, and the other PCs, watched a flickery vision of a hooded dwarf crouch on the floor, insert something into thin air, look very nervous and repeat the phrase “Help me Arr-Zero-Cee-Kay. You're my only hope.” Rock in adventures past discovered that his mum and dad are not his mum and dad at all, and that he was delivered to the childless Dwarven couple by a Tannheim Dwarf (an Inventor clan) called Creator Klum. He later learned that Creator Klum invented things called the Dwarforged- mechanical dwarves. He later learned that further prototype Dwarforged were in fact incredibly real... and if that wasn't enough he learned that Creator Klum's last project was called R0. Next to the R0, Creator Klum's initials R0-CK. That made him real worried.
Not as much though as when he found R1-CK sometime later.
All my players, and every major inhabitant of the Pyramid have their stories.
Gharash Vren (leader of the bandits in the Pyramid) and Farkill have a lot in common, Gharash Vren's backstory is equally terrible- a similar act of betrayal.
The Parsley Prophet... I could go on but my players may read this and they're only on the first level of the Pyramid, and there's wedges of stuff to come- I've had to do all the spadework however, which I don't mind of course, it's just... well, a little more- plot, story, characters that come alive and have purpose, detail (jumping off points), a fantasy reality in which cool fights are cooler because the players have had to use much more than their swords & spells to get there.
Sorry there's a lot of this.
Thanks for an amazing game, the time and the patience to read this, and most of all asking me (us) what we thought.
LOVE
