Help me nail down this 'take 10, take 20' nonsense

Pretty much by definition dc 20 secret door is easy to find for the very reason that a person with no skill at all could find the door.

This is not to say that they could open it however, maybe that is the mechanic you are looking for. Finding it is usually the easy part. Figuring out how to open it can be very difficult indeed.
 

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Knifespeaks asked:
Consider this example (really, this is about the only issue I have with taking 20):

There is a secret door, on the first level of a dungeon. It leads to the treasure room on the lowest level of the dungeon. How do you make it POSSIBLE that a player of skill 0 to find, yet prevent them from taking 20?

That's actually a really, really good question, and I'm glad you asked it.

To start off with, you have two choices regarding how difficult to find the door really is:

1. Anyone with a Search skill of 0 will be able to find the door given enough time. In this case, the Search DC of the door must be exactly 20. Note that this does not prevent the character from finding the door on his or her quick once-over, as a 20 could still be rolled.

2. Anyone with a Search skill of 0 won't be able to find the door given enough time, but will with enough information. In this case, you may set the DC higher, so long as you provide a chance to "earn" an appropriate Circumstance modifier (the DM's friend). For instance, when it comes to a DC 24 secret door, a character with a Search modifier of +0 will never, ever find it. However, should they find the Necromancer's journal, which luckily includes a quick diagram of the doorway, they recieve a +4 Circumstance bonus on Search checks when looking for that particular door. Now, the +0 person can find the door while taking 20, since he's got the clues.

We'll assume, for purposes of east, that you choose the 1st option. It's possible for a non-Search focused person to find the door if they are lucky. The next part of your problem is the ability to Take 20. There are actually quite a few ways to work around something like this.

1. Enforce time limits. "Taking 20" on a search check allows you to check exactly *1* 5' by 5' square. This will take a single character two minutes to do. A fairly standard 30' by 30' room, then, is made up of 36 5' x 5' squares. Thus, it'll take a single searching character more than an hour to search the whole room, or 40 minutes just to search the walls. After 40 minutes of searching, most of your party's spells will have worn out, you'll have burned through a couple torches, and any intelligent enemies in your area will have prepared at least a makeshift barricade. These are entirely separate from other, more difficult time considerations - perhaps the princess will be sacrificed at midnight, so you don't have time to waste checking every square foot of floor space for secret doors.

2. Make the door easy to find but hard to open. Finding the door, in this case, is only half of the problem, since you still need to get the darned thing open. Maybe there's a hidden lever (harder to find), or a secret phrase or password that needs to be spoken, that causes the 2' thick stone door to swing open. Perhaps the lever is actually located inside a nearby pit trap, or in the ceiling.

The real question, however, is why the bad guy is designing such lousy secret doors. After all, if any fool off the street (+0 Search bonus) can find it given enough time, then any reasonably-trained individual will find it almost without effort. For instance, an Elven Rogue 2 who's trained himself to find hidden things (Search +5 ranks, Int +2, Racial bonus +2, Skill Focus (Search) +3, TOTAL: +12) will probably find it just by walking past it.

In other words, if want to keep people out of your secret rooms, a DC 20 door isn't going to accomplish much.

EDIT:

As Scion, said, above. The problem is that you think a DC 20 secret door should be hard to find.

It isn't.

In fact, a standard camoflauged *pit trap* has a standard Search DC of 24.
 
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Ok, perhaps the opening suggestion might work....

Can you 'take 20' in the opening though? You know...

"I'll push, pull, twist, turn, poke, prod, whatever until the door opens?"

I mean, if you allow a take 20 rationale to apply in the finding of said door, surely then the same rationale applies in the opening? ie, eventually it will be figured out?
 

They can try of course, but any bad things that can happen because of doing so are going to happen ;)

If it is dc 20 or less to find and dc 20 or less to open with no traps of any kind then effectively it is one of the worst hidden doors ever!
 

Next question =
Can you 'take 20' in the opening though? You know...

Depends.

You could take 20 to pick the lock (which would take another two minutes to do), assuming you were able to pick the lock on a roll of 20. [EDIT: And assuming the lock was on *this* side of the door! ;) [/EDIT]

You could take 20 on the Strength check to batter it down. To batter down a standard wooden door (like on most houses) is a DC 13 check - so someone with a Strength of 16 or better could Take 10 and succeed. A strong wooden door - like, say, on an office building - has a break DC of 23, so you'd need to spend two minutes pounding away on it to break it.

Alternatively, you could probably hack it apart with your axe - Hardness 5, 20 HP - in a couple of rounds.

An Iron Door has a break DC of 28 - so no one with a Strength score less than 26 can break it down, even when taking 20.

[Edit: Stone doors fall in between wooden doors and iron doors in terms of how hard they are to break apart.]

Taking 20 on a further Search check might let you find the lever - if you're searching the right area. If the lever isn't in the same square as the door, then no amount of prodding, poking, etc., will allow you to find it - you'll have to search elsewhere.
 
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Thanks for that post Patryn...that's most informative.

Your comments about the rogue though highlight an observation, namely....is it possible to find something when you aren't actively searching for it? I concede that you might SPOT something, but that's not the same as search, at least I thought not.
 

He's an Elven rogue.

Elves have a special ability to make free Search checks whenever they pass within 5' of a secret door. :)

SRD said:
An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.

The thing that might help you out a bit is that you can only Take 20 when you are doing something specific. You can't "Take 20 to open a door."

You could "Take 20" to search the door for traps. (Search Check)
You could "Take 20" to break the door down. (Strength Check)
You could "Take 20" to pick the lock on the door. (Open Locks Check)
 

knifespeaks said:
is it possible to find something when you aren't actively searching for it?
From the SRD under ELVES...
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.

Edit: I was beaten again. Stupid slow connection (muttering to self)...
 
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Patryn of Elvenshae said:
Actually, I was responding to this...

The only way you can have a 95% chance of success on anything is if a roll of 1 is a failure.

And if a *good* Rogue only has a 95% chance of success, that means he's autofailing on a 1 (barring the off chance that he's looking for something with a Search DC of 11, and he's got a Search skill of +9).

No, that's not what you were responding to, or you would have quoted that in the first place. Now you're changing the subject.

Yes, I precisely mean Search bonus of +9 with DC 11.
Or Search bonus +23 with DC of 25. Etc.
It's not the same as auto-fail-on-1.
 
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D, I was *also* responding to that. Don't be dense, mmkay?

Then, in the strange world where all DCs are balanced such that the only way to fail is on a roll of a 1, you have a world where a 1 is an autofail.
 

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