Help me nail down this 'take 10, take 20' nonsense

[Li Shenron]

I don't quite see how you could take 10 (or 20) on a Knowledge check...
Either you know something or you don't; it doesn't matter if you are threatened or have all the time in the world. Also, in 3.5, it is stated that under most circumstances making a knowledge check does not take an action. It's unlike most other skills as most other skills involve some action or time to accomplish something.

I very much agree with you, and I have always played it that you cannot Take10 nor Take20 with Knowledge skills, but I am afraid we're among the few.

The problem with Knowledge checks is that the mechanic doesn't really quite model the capacity for people to remember and forget: If you can Take 10, then you will never forget the basics. A highly trained person shouldn't forget the basics, as they have enough ranks to always get at least 10 on their checks, unlike someone with only one or two ranks.

True, memory is not part of 3ed rules at all. If it was, it could however apply to much more than Knowledge checks alone, and it should be based on Wisdom. Probably a separate skill (because you CAN learn methods to improve your memory) the use of which would be to grant circumstance modifiers to other skills. I suppose memory was not addressed by the game for simplicity.

If someone has a quiet place away from distractions and time for deep contemplation, a retry with a circumstance bonus may be in order, and being able to consult a reference book may also provide a bonus too. But these things take up some game time that is not specified in the rules.

As a rule of thumb I would always keep distinction between Knowledge checks to see what the PC know and research activity. Some third party books introduce a separate skill for this, some DMs use Search, some use simple Int checks, and some use the exact Knowledge check but it should be a different use of the Knowledge skill and as such it doesn't have to work the same way (see the various uses of Spellcraft).

However, if anyone can explain how an on-the-spot take 10 knowledge check is supposed to work, I'd be happy and will start using it in my game.

I don't allow Take10 on Knowledge because it generates paradoxes, such as the fact that a threatened character knows more difficult knowledge than he would in a comfortable environment or that what he knows depends on the situation, which is clearly absurd.

The whole point is that Knowledge in 3ed means exactly "what you KNOW" not what you remember... If it meant what you remember, it would definitely allows Take10 but also retries, and as such at least it would be specified how often you can retry to remember.

 

[Sebastian Francis]

Two LotR examples of taking 20 on a knowledge check:

1. Gandalf takes 20 in that bit where they all sit around while he tries to remember which way to go in Moria.

2. Gandalf takes 20 to work out what the password to the gates of Moria is.

M

Not really. The 1st example is closer to an Intuit Direction/Wilderness Lore check (or what you 3.5 types call "Survival"). The second is closer to a straight Intelligence check. Knowledge, in D&D terms, is something you either know or don't know. "Figuring something out"--which is what both your examples are--isn't covered by Knowledge.

Maybe in the Lord of the Rings RPG, though...

 

[Numion]

I don't allow Take10 on Knowledge because it generates paradoxes, such as the fact that a threatened character knows more difficult knowledge than he would in a comfortable environment or that what he knows depends on the situation, which is clearly absurd.

Mind isn't a data bank from where you can just retrieve info regardless of situation. You've never had a situation where you've forgotten something, just to get it back after the situation?

Would holding a gun to a contestants head make them answer better or worse at a quiz show?

 

[Scion]

Would holding a gun to a contestants head make them answer better or worse at a quiz show?

Please dont give them ideas for the next 'reality television'

 

[Numion]

Please dont give them ideas for the next 'reality television'

Good idea! They could name it "Say what?!", after the scene in Pulp Fiction where Samuel L Jackson questions the dude

 

[shilsen]

Or Frodo grants him a re-roll, by giving fresh inspiration.

Bye
Thanee

True. I have it on good authority that Gandalf's player (who was so munchkin, by the way) got Frodo to do an Aid Another action and argued the DM into allowing him another roll.

Don't even get me started on the DM - now there was a guy who had no clue about party balance!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Good idea! They could name it "Say what?!", after the scene in Pulp Fiction where Samuel L Jackson questions the dude

There's also the Jackman-meets-Travolta scene in Swordfish...

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Not really. The 1st example is closer to an Intuit Direction/Wilderness Lore check (or what you 3.5 types call "Survival"). The second is closer to a straight Intelligence check. Knowledge, in D&D terms, is something you either know or don't know. "Figuring something out"--which is what both your examples are--isn't covered by Knowledge.

I was going to write the same things! I don't remember exactly, but I thought Gandalf sat at the entrance trying to remember the way, and finally notices a breeze of air coming from one direction and decided to go that way, he didn't remember the right way but guessed it from something else... Although I just might confuse the scene with another movie

The password also, I seem to remember he just didn't know and had to guess it. A simple Int check, eventually retried after some time and more thinking.

 

[Li Shenron]

Mind isn't a data bank from where you can just retrieve info regardless of situation. You've never had a situation where you've forgotten something, just to get it back after the situation?

I thought I wrote my opinion pretty clearly... Memory is not part of 3ed rule, and more specifically it's not part of Knowledge checks. Knowledge checks are not actions like other skills, they are just a % chance that something coming up in the story is known by a character, according to his skill modifier.

I don't think I'm making this up, it's written in the PHB... You cannot retry a Knowledge check because this skill "represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place". Not only this specifically forbids to Take20, but also allowing to Take10 means that circumstances have an effect on your Knowledge result, which doesn't match with the meaning of the skill.

It could be possible (although I've never heard before) to play that circumstances affect you when you're studying a topic. So if you want, you could say that a character who has always studied history in a comfortable environment, with enough time and good sources, can take 10 in Knowledge checks because actually he was taking 10 when learning. But that shouldn't still be affected by the circumstance when you're saying the answer. However I wouldn't allow this either, but that's because in typical settings knowledge is always essentially random or incomplete at best.

Then, if you think it's too "unrealistic" for your tastes, you're welcome to introduce something to represent memory (which as I said, should be something based on Wisdom and not on Intelligence). I am sure that the reason why it's not part of core rules is only because they probably thought it was an unnecessary complication, as many other things which could have been addressed by the game but which aren't...

 

[knifespeaks]

"I won't let you take 20 on Search checks."
"But retries are allowed?"
"Yup."
"Okay, I search."
"You don't find anything."
"I search again."
"You don't find anything."
"I search again."
"You don't find anything."
"I search again."
"You don't find anything."
"I search again."
"You don't find anything."
"I search again."
"You don't find anything."
"I search again."
"You don't find anything."
"I search again."
"You don't find anything."
"I search again."
"You don't find anything."
"I search again."
"You don't find anything."
"... I'm gonna keep doing this until the probability I have not rolled a 20 in there somewhere drops below some arbitrary threshhold, okay?"

-Hyp.

See, the problem with take 20 is demonstrated perfectly right there - why keep searching if you searched once and found nothing?

If you search and find nothing, you FOUND NOTHING. That means that you either FAILED TO FIND what was there, or there is NOTHING TO FIND. And you don't know which it is - hence permitting a take 20 to succeed is equivalent to metagaming. My response? Keep seaching all ya like, ain't gonna change the initial roll