Help me nerf the druid

[Jhaelen]

No I meant it wasn't broken with just MM1.

Well, I'm not an expert on this (I don't have to since I just saved myself the trouble and banned it right away), but I vaguely remember chokers and hydras being broken choices and some cheesy stuff related to a balor's equipment.

I'm sure the CO boards are full of this stuff.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, I'm not an expert on this (I don't have to since I just saved myself the trouble and banned it right away), but I vaguely remember chokers and hydras being broken choices and some cheesy stuff related to a balor's equipment.

I'm sure the CO boards are full of this stuff.

He was talking about WILD SHAPE!!!!!

I don't think it was even broken with Natural Spell. Flying inconspicuous bird + spells can be devastating. But...so can an Improved Invisibility arcanist flying around...

 

[Jhaelen]

He was talking about WILD SHAPE!!!!!

Oh, dear. Sorry about this.

I think I confused this thread with one over in the legacy forum... move on, nothing to see here

 

[Shisumo]

Hmm thanks for the info will look up the Polymorph descriptor.. too bad one can't just read the spell descriptions anymore to get such details. So you get size changes to CMB(d), but not the same size modifiers to attributes? Thus when you choose a small or even tiny form you retain your 18 str (if you have that)? When you say you get AC, you mean the natural armor? Dex bonus? Anything else?

You may have already looked this stuff up, but to answer the question anyway: you get specific size modifications to your physical stats for pretty much any spell in the polymorph school*. As a rule, shifting to a Medium form gets you +2 Strength, while shifting to a Small form gets you +2 Dex. Tiny forms get +4 Dex and -2 Str (sometimes -4 Strength and/or -2 Con), while Large forms get +4 Strength, -2 Dex and usually +2 Con. Etc. The typical size modifiers to AC and attacks apply, and there is often, but not always, a specific modifier to natural armor as well.

*Note that, if you are not Medium or Small to begin with, you first take some size modifications to "get to" one of those two before you start appying further modifiers. Giants don't get stronger by shifting to Medium forms.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

He was talking about WILD SHAPE!!!!!

I don't think it was even broken with Natural Spell. Flying inconspicuous bird + spells can be devastating. But...so can an Improved Invisibility arcanist flying around...

Well you can't do that at 4th level (well not without scrolls at least). With Wild Shape you can (or in 3.5, at 5th level). Also imp. invis only last for a few times, while Wild Shape lasts hours or until discontinued (3.5).

And of course Fly has a very short duration too unless you're talking overland flight. Which IIRC is higher level.

You may have already looked this stuff up, but to answer the question anyway: you get specific size modifications to your physical stats for pretty much any spell in the polymorph school*. As a rule, shifting to a Medium form gets you +2 Strength, while shifting to a Small form gets you +2 Dex. Tiny forms get +4 Dex and -2 Str (sometimes -4 Strength and/or -2 Con), while Large forms get +4 Strength, -2 Dex and usually +2 Con. Etc. The typical size modifiers to AC and attacks apply, and there is often, but not always, a specific modifier to natural armor as well.

*Note that, if you are not Medium or Small to begin with, you first take some size modifications to "get to" one of those two before you start appying further modifiers. Giants don't get stronger by shifting to Medium forms.

Are you talking about generic modifiers as described in the "Beast form" spell? Well they are a far cry from actual size changes. IIRC you got +8 str, +4 con etc. for going from medium to large (except where noted in spells like enlarge person).

Now compare it to actually shifting into a brown bear... ouch quite a difference.

BTW just read it... fairly clear that magic armor doesen't work since you don't get the armor bonus. An enhancement bonus to armor would thus be pointless (you can't have +3 magic cotton shirt in 3.75), while enhancement bonuses to natural armor would work indeed.

You don't get any size changes except where noted by the spell, pretty clear (unless you're not medium or small sized).

Strangely enough, if you are large and become medium you lose Con, but if you go the other way you don't gain Con... ?

I couldn't find if you actually are supposed to remove your racial modifiers when you use Beast Shape(Wild Shape).If you do, halflings could gain a net +4 to str (but losing their dex bonus). Are mental stats affected at all?.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well you can't do that at 4th level (well not without scrolls at least). With Wild Shape you can (or in 3.5, at 5th level). Also imp. invis only last for a few times, while Wild Shape lasts hours or until discontinued (3.5).

And of course Fly has a very short duration too unless you're talking overland flight. Which IIRC is higher level.

6th level. Need natural spell to cast while in Wild Shape. And really, 1/day for 5 hours and turning back if you decide you like to participate in a conversation and end it for the day really isn't sustainable. Level 6 you get the feat and 2/day for 6 hours a pop.

And of course, flying is just an extra perk. Invisibility and casting alone is pretty sweet, and druids can't really ever make themselves invisible. I'm sure there's some spell out there or some trick...but most Druids can't, at least.

 

[Shisumo]

Are you talking about generic modifiers as described in the "Beast form" spell? Well they are a far cry from actual size changes. IIRC you got +8 str, +4 con etc. for going from medium to large (except where noted in spells like enlarge person).

Now compare it to actually shifting into a brown bear... ouch quite a difference.

I was talking about the spells in the polymorph spells specifically, which are indeed much different from (and generally much less impressive than) the generic size change modifiers from the Bestiary.

I couldn't find if you actually are supposed to remove your racial modifiers when you use Beast Shape(Wild Shape).If you do, halflings could gain a net +4 to str (but losing their dex bonus). Are mental stats affected at all?.

You don't lose your racial modifications, and as far as I know, there are no changes to mental stats at all (with the exception of baleful polymorph, that is).

 

[Friend of the Dork]

I was talking about the spells in the polymorph spells specifically, which are indeed much different from (and generally much less impressive than) the generic size change modifiers from the Bestiary.


You don't lose your racial modifications, and as far as I know, there are no changes to mental stats at all (with the exception of baleful polymorph, that is).

That don't really make sense... you still get the toughness of the dwarf when you polymorph/shift into something else?

The more I read of the Pathfinder rules on this subject the less I like them

At least in 3.5 there was still a feeling of becoming that animal. Now it's just a few weak bonuses and maybe a speed.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

That don't really make sense... you still get the toughness of the dwarf when you polymorph/shift into something else?

The more I read of the Pathfinder rules on this subject the less I like them

At least in 3.5 there was still a feeling of becoming that animal. Now it's just a few weak bonuses and maybe a speed.

Yup, I hate the PF changes for the same reason. Instead of revamping the monster entries by HD and CR so a creature could only have a certain range of natural armor bonus (say for a certain HD it could have between a +2 and a +6 depending on how "thick hided" and slow it was) and other features like they should have, PF took the easy way out and just made polymorph abilities into some weird transmuation-illusion crossbreed, where you may look like creature x, but you sure as heck don't have his actual physical qualities.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Yup, I hate the PF changes for the same reason. Instead of revamping the monster entries by HD and CR so a creature could only have a certain range of natural armor bonus (say for a certain HD it could have between a +2 and a +6 depending on how "thick hided" and slow it was) and other features like they should have, PF took the easy way out and just made polymorph abilities into some weird transmuation-illusion crossbreed, where you may look like creature x, but you sure as heck don't have his actual physical qualities.

Ah

Well thanks for info guys anyway. I'm seriously considering house ruling it back to 3.5 rules, but might that make druids too powerful? Do druids really get much new in PF anyway? I compared Animal Companion with 3.5 and it was almost the same. Optional Domains is nice, but usually less powerful than the companions, at least at low-mid levels.

Anything else I missed?