Help me stop my Player!

[Rkhet]

Back to the shadows created by shadows created by the PC issue. The PC has at best some sort of tenative influence over the 2nd tier shadows. But I emphasize this part since he didn't create them he doesn't control them. So unless those he created give themspecific instructions (and you can bet they will read as much liberalness into those instructions as possible becasue that is what monsters do after all) the PC is at risk throughout, esoecially if he is surrounded by an entire village (or close to it) worth of shadows after he created a mere family's worth.

This is not the Wish spell. This is controlling undead. There are clear precedents as to how undead is controlled: Rebuke/command, and Control Undead. Neither has an exceedingly great chance of rebellion. The shadows are not particularly intelligent (Int 6), and they do not have any non-metagame motivations to harm the PC - who brought them into being and who is presumably more powerful than any one of them. "That is what monsters do after all" doesn't exactly fit the bill here, if it ever did anywhere.

The first tier shadows will follow his instructions to the best of their abilities. The second tier will follow the first tier to the best of their abilities, and so on. If a first-tier shadow dies, the second-tier shadows he controls becomes free-willed undead and do the things that free-willed undead normally do. If the party members are in vincinity and alone - not surrounded by shadows loyal to them, for example - they may attack, but they will not be hunting the party down with unholy vengeance en masse unless there is very, very good reason for them to risk true death.

There likely will be logistical problems. It'll take a long time for orders to be passed down the chain - if it happens at all. Realistically, the PC should be limited to very simple orders like 'follow', 'stay' and 'kill', and there should be a chance each time that a portion of the shadows simply mills around confused (except for kill. They should instinctively know how to do that.)

 

[Rkhet]

OK. What's your point? Cause you seem to be implying something and I'm sure that is not the case.

The language suggests to me that rule 0 has been watered down. No longer a rule, in fact. Something that the DM may like to do, instead.

 

[irdeggman]

The language suggests to me that rule 0 has been watered down. No longer a rule, in fact. Something that the DM may like to do, instead.

I read it more like what is written - a warning to be careful when you do this. Pretty much what was implied in the rule 0 issue.

Rule 0 was always something the DM "may" do not something he "had" to do in the first place. I don't understand your point. Changing rules is "optional" not "mandatory" and that is what rule 0 and the wording in 3.5 is all about.

 

[irdeggman]

This is not the Wish spell. This is controlling undead. There are clear precedents as to how undead is controlled: Rebuke/command, and Control Undead. Neither has an exceedingly great chance of rebellion. The shadows are not particularly intelligent (Int 6), and they do not have any non-metagame motivations to harm the PC - who brought them into being and who is presumably more powerful than any one of them. "That is what monsters do after all" doesn't exactly fit the bill here, if it ever did anywhere

I never said anything about rebellion. I was talking about how they would react and the fact that they are 2nd tier. Using the examples of command undead, compulsions and control undead. Only the one that created the shadow is immune to its attacks. This is a supernatural ability for being a shadow. Creatures operating under compulsions (seems to be the most appropriate description for how they would react) do not offer anything more than is asked for. (I believe I used the words specific instructions – checking my quote, yes I did).

Depending on if the command undead or control undead spells are used as the precedent for how it works determines whether or not the controller is perceived in the best possible light (command) vice specifically doing what is asked (command). Note that “command” equates to “charm” and “control” equates to “compulsion”.


And they are as intelligent (at 6) as is a wizard's familiar or a paladins's special mount (at low levels).

What I said was:

Back to the shadows created by shadows created by the PC issue. The PC has at best some sort of tentative influence over the 2nd tier shadows. But I emphasize this part since he didn't create them he doesn't control them. So unless those he created give them specific instructions (and you can bet they will read as much liberalness into those instructions as possible because that is what monsters do after all) the PC is at risk throughout, especially if he is surrounded by an entire village (or close to it) worth of shadows after he created a mere family's worth.

The first tier shadows will follow his instructions to the best of their abilities. The second tier will follow the first tier to the best of their abilities, and so on. If a first-tier shadow dies, the second-tier shadows he controls becomes free-willed undead and do the things that free-willed undead normally do. If the party members are in vicinity and alone - not surrounded by shadows loyal to them, for example - they may attack, but they will not be hunting the party down with unholy vengeance en masse unless there is very, very good reason for them to risk true death.

Never said anything about hunting with unholy vengeance. I only said they were at risk, which they are.



from the SRD

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.


CHARM AND COMPULSION
Many abilities and spells can cloud the minds of characters and monsters, leaving them unable to tell friend from foe—or worse yet, deceiving them into thinking that their former friends are now their worst enemies. Two general types of enchantments affect characters and creatures: charms and compulsions.

Charming another creature gives the charming character the ability to befriend and suggest courses of actions to his minion, but the servitude is not absolute or mindless. Charms of this type include the various charm spells. Essentially, a charmed character retains free will but makes choices according to a skewed view of the world.
• A charmed creature doesn’t gain any magical ability to understand his new friend’s language.
• A charmed character retains his original alignment and allegiances, generally with the exception that he now regards the charming creature as a dear friend and will give great weight to his suggestions and directions.
• A charmed character fights his former allies only if they threaten his new friend, and even then he uses the least lethal means at his disposal as long as these tactics show any possibility of success (just as he would in a fight between two actual friends).
• A charmed character is entitled to an opposed Charisma check against his master in order to resist instructions or commands that would make him do something he wouldn’t normally do even for a close friend. If he succeeds, he decides not to go along with that order but remains charmed.
• A charmed character never obeys a command that is obviously suicidal or grievously harmful to her.
• If the charming creature commands his minion to do something that the influenced character would be violently opposed to, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to break free of the influence altogether.
• A charmed character who is openly attacked by the creature who charmed him or by that creature’s apparent allies is automatically freed of the spell or effect.

Compulsion is a different matter altogether. A compulsion overrides the subject’s free will in some way or simply changes the way the subject’s mind works. A charm makes the subject a friend of the caster; a compulsion makes the subject obey the caster.

Regardless of whether a character is charmed or compelled, he won’t volunteer information or tactics that his master doesn’t ask for.



Evil Clerics and Undead
Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.

Rebuked: A rebuked undead creature cowers as if in awe (attack rolls against the creature get a +2 bonus). The effect lasts 10 rounds.

Commanded: A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.


Command
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Clr 1
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You give the subject a single command, which it obeys to the best of its ability at its earliest opportunity. You may select from the following options.

Approach: On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round. The creature may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.

Drop: On its turn, the subject drops whatever it is holding. It can’t pick up any dropped item until its next turn.

Fall: On its turn, the subject falls to the ground and remains prone for 1 round. It may act normally while prone but takes any appropriate penalties.

Flee: On its turn, the subject moves away from you as quickly as possible for 1 round. It may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.

Halt: The subject stands in place for 1 round. It may not take any actions but is not considered helpless.
If the subject can’t carry out your command on its next turn, the spell automatically fails.


Command Undead
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One undead creature
Duration: One day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell allows you some degree of control over an undead creature. Assuming the subject is intelligent, it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way (treat its attitude as friendly). It will not attack you while the spell lasts. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An intelligent commanded undead never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing.

A nonintelligent undead creature gets no saving throw against this spell. When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on. Nonintelligent undead won’t resist suicidal or obviously harmful orders.

Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the commanded undead (regardless of its Intelligence) breaks the spell.

Your commands are not telepathic. The undead creature must be able to hear you.
Material Component: A shred of raw meat and a splinter of bone.

Control Undead
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: Up to 2 HD/level of undead creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell enables you to command undead creatures for a short period of time. You command them by voice and they understand you, no matter what language you speak. Even if vocal communication is impossible the controlled undead do not attack you. At the end of the spell, the subjects revert to their normal behavior.

Intelligent undead creatures remember that you controlled them.
Material Component: A small piece of bone and a small piece of raw meat.

 

[Aenghus]

To the OP:

If you're running a high magic game, it would be feasible for most villages to possess some means of detecting hostiles before its too late. Mabye the local church has placed detect undead or detect evil plinths around the area villages that sound an alarm if set off. Maybe something else entirely. If I had easy access to magic as a town mayor, I would definately invest in my town's defenses.

Also, this plan relies on exploiting a logical flaw in D&D, the undead spawn creation rules in general. These rules if taken as written in isolation, lead to the logical conclusion of a haunted deadworld with a few beleagered stragglers holding out in magically defended havens till their food runs out, due to the overwhelming effects of geometric growth that undead spawn creation appears to allow.

The fact that most campaign worlds are not necropolises leads to the conclusion that either some undefined in-game mechanisms unfailingly stop undead from spiralling out of control, or that undead spawn creation is a plot device intended to be occasionally threatening but not to be logically exploited to its ultimate conclusion.

I think the latter is the case, create spawn is primarily a plot device. As evidenced by the player initiating this thread, the idea of an unstoppable army of geometrically-increasing undead is quickly arrived at from the existence of the create spawn ability. Without artificially created mechanisms, such an army seems easy to create, and effectively unstoppable once it reaches a certain size.

Though if the army has a leader, killing that leader might at least remove it's unification and perhaps disperse it.
Aenghus

 

[Veril]

He wants to purchase a scroll or two of shapechange and turn into a shadow, gaining the create spawn ability. Before shapechanging he plans to sneak into a house in a small village and use a sap to disable the members of the household. When they are unconscious he will turn into a shadow and do enough STR damage to each of them to turn them into shadows, under his control. After accumulating several of these followers, they will go through the village and simultaneously attack more sleeping individuals, create even more spawn. The end result...an army of undead shadows.

My question is obviously whether or not this is legal, and if not what are the sticking points. From a DM perspective I already have ways of dealing with it should he carry through with the plan (he wont be able to escape notice if he does somethig like this and various people will hunt for the culprit), but it seems like the tactic should have a hole in it somewhere. I'm just wondering if anyone sees something I'm missing that prevents this tactic from working.

The biggest problem with the plan from the players perspective is that when the shapechange wears off the player loses the create spawn ability. The command your own created spawn is a part of the supernatural ability. It's not listed seperatly from the create spawn, it IS a part of the create spawn.

Next, it states in the description for shadows that "shadows cannot speak intelligibly" - so how are these orders from the 'master' shadow issued to his spawn? Nothing implies telepathihc contact between shadows.

Now, as an assumed limit to the number of spawn under his control - pretty much everything limits you to controlling a maximum of twice your own hit dice (clerics commanding undead, vampires controlling their spawn) this goes throughout all the rules generally.

if you rationalise that the shadow's are formed from the essence of the person they were created from, then they may retain some knowledge of their previous life. In which case you can say they hate their master/killer and will seek to pervert ever command given to them.

There is (to my mind) a 'natural' resistance to being dominatede/controlled - creatures do not want to be under the control of another. If you assume that, then the spawn would want their master destroyed in order to be free, so again, they would go out of their way to pervert the commands given to them.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Why is everyone so keen to screw over the PC? He came up with something original. Let him have his fun.

Having something exceptionally bad happen to the PC everytime they use the rules to their advantage falls dangerously close to metagaming.

The player already "metagamed" by reading the Monster Manual and forming his plan on that information.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The biggest problem with the plan from the players perspective is that when the shapechange wears off the player loses the create spawn ability.

Correct.

The command your own created spawn is a part of the supernatural ability. It's not listed seperatly from the create spawn, it IS a part of the create spawn.

Maybe not.

Check it again, and remember that, in D&D, you only check "targeting info" once, not continually.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Re: Rule 0

Rule 0 (from 3.0) is not that the DM can create houserules. It's that when the DM does create them, he should (must) inform the players about those houserules. Houserules are fine, just make sure the players are on board with them before using them. The DM does not have the power to create houserules without the players' foreknowledge.

This, of course, does not excuse any metagaming on either the player's or DM's part.

PS Did RL mean Ravenloft or real life (as opposed to PBEM or similar) game?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Not sure that knowledge would work (unless it is in the PHB 3.5). I'd use Knowledge (Occult) or soemthing similar.

Knowledge(Religion) is for undead, Knowledge(Undead) has been assimilated by K(R). There is now a system that tells you how much you know about a monster based on your Knowledge roll.

Read it here