Help me stop my Player!

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I believe taking and healing damage is the exception when it comes to these sorts of spells.

An exception called out where?

Continuing on ...

[Retriever]Eye Rays (Su): A retriever’s eyes can produce four different magical rays with a range of 100 feet. Each round, it can fire one ray as a free action. A particular ray is usable only once every 4 rounds. A retriever can fire an eye ray in the same round that it makes physical attacks. The save DC for all rays is 18. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
The four eye effects are:
Fire: Deals 12d6 points of fire damage to the target (Reflex half ).
Cold: Deals 12d6 points of cold damage to the target (Reflex half ).
Electricity: Deals 12d6 points of electricity damage to the target (Reflex half ).
Petrification: The target must succeed on a Fortitude save or turn to stone permanently.

[Dragonne]Roar (Su): A dragonne can loose a devastating roar every 1d4 rounds. All creatures except dragonnes within 120 feet must succeed on a DC 15 Will save or become fatigued. Those within 30 feet who fail their saves become exhausted. The save DC is Charisma-based.

[Ghaele Eladrin]Gaze (Su): In humanoid form—slay evil creatures of 5 or less HD, range 60 feet, Will DC 18 negates. Even if the save succeeds, the creature is affected as though by a fear spell for 2d10 rounds. Nonevil creatures, and evil creatures with more than 5 HD, must succeed on a DC 18 Will save or suffer the fear effect. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

[Ghoul]Ghoul Fever (Su): Disease—bite, Fortitude DC 12, incubation period 1 day, damage 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex. The save DC is Charisma-based.

[Giberring Mouther]Ground Manipulation (Su): At will, as a standard action, a gibbering mouther can cause stone and earth in all adjacent squares to become a morass akin to quicksand. Softening earth, sand, or the like takes 1 round, while stone takes 2 rounds. Anyone other than the mouther in that area must take a move-equivalent action to avoid becoming mired (treat as being pinned).

[Forest Gnome]—Pass without Trace (Su): A forest gnome has the innate ability to use pass without trace (self only, as a free action) as the spell cast by a druid of the forest gnome’s class levels.

[Vampire] Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

Etc.

 

[Rkhet]

Check the spell targeting rules.

As an example, consider the spell Shillelagh.

Argh. Not the Shillelagh again.

It seems that no long post can go without extended debate about either the targetting rules or Polymorph and its complications. Or, in this case, both.

Never said anything about hunting with unholy vengeance. I only said they were at risk, which they are.

You were saying that the shadows would maliciously misinterpret orders to the detriment of the player. They have no reason to do so, especially if the orders of the player are something like 'kill them'. Whether Int 6 is sufficient to come up with a way to do this at all is up for debate.

I would imagine that the first order the player would pass down to his shadow army would be, "do not attack me or my party under any circumstances". And it will be followed.

Next, it states in the description for shadows that "shadows cannot speak intelligibly" - so how are these orders from the 'master' shadow issued to his spawn? Nothing implies telepathihc contact between shadows.

That begs the question, then: how does real shadows control other shadows? They must have some way of to do so? Maybe they use gestures.

The player already "metagamed" by reading the Monster Manual and forming his plan on that information.

My take, after some thought, is that the player can do whatever he likes for whatever motive, long as his character can come up with a plausible in-game reason to do so. It is a matter of practicality: being told your character cannot do x for no reason other than because you would like to is not exactly fun. Check my post above about the Paladin's dilemma.

 

[IcyCool]

An exception called out where?

I didn't say it was called out anywhere, sorry if I was unclear. Maybe this will be a bit more clear.

Can you show me an example (we'll just use the SRD for now), where a spell has a lasting, permanent effect aside from inflicting or healing damage (ability or otherwise), and that has a duration other than permanent or instantaneous?

I don't think there is one. That's what I was trying to say.

Oh, and I'll go ahead and ask you to not include Shapechanging into a Shadow, as that is what we are debating currently.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I didn't say it was called out anywhere, sorry if I was unclear. Maybe this will be a bit more clear.

Gotcha!

Can you show me an example (we'll just use the SRD for now), where a spell has a lasting, permanent effect aside from inflicting or healing damage (ability or otherwise), and that has a duration other than permanent or instantaneous?

...

Oh, and I'll go ahead and ask you to not include Shapechanging into a Shadow, as that is what we are debating currently.

Heh - what do you say to shapechanging into a ghaele eladrin, though, like I posted above? It has a (Su) ability to make a gaze attack to strike any Evil creature with less than 5HD dead. Would you rule - using your interpretation of the shadow's create spawn ability - that the Evil creature is only dead until the shapechange spell wears off?

And when you say "permanent, lasting effect," I think you'll need to be more specific.

For instance, the spell Animal Messenger has a duration of 1 day / level. However, once the spell has expired, the target still has the message you sent them. That could presumably be referred to as a "lasting effect." The same could largely be said for any non-Instantaneous, non-Permanent divination.

 

[IcyCool]

And when you say "permanent, lasting effect," I think you'll need to be more specific.

I wouldn't consider said bad guy to be any more alive than if you had beaten him to death as an Eladrin.

As to the permanent, lasting effect. I guess I can't be more specific. Maybe I should say, can you point out an example that gives an effect similar to your "shadow master."

For instance, the spell Animal Messenger has a duration of 1 day / level. However, once the spell has expired, the target still has the message you sent them. That could presumably be referred to as a "lasting effect." The same could largely be said for any non-Instantaneous, non-Permanent divination.

Well, by that example, every spell has a permanent, lasting effect.

I guess I'm just curious as to why you don't think the "controlling spawn" aspect of the Create Spawn ability is part of the Create Spawn ability.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I guess I'm just curious as to why you don't think the "controlling spawn" aspect of the Create Spawn ability is part of the Create Spawn ability.

Because of who's doing the obeying.

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.

While shapechanged into a shadow, I kill you via Strength damage. I am "your killer." You rise in 1d4 rounds as a shadow, and must obey "your killer." That's me.

When shapechange ends, I'm still "your killer." Accordingly, you are still under the control of "your killer."

Look at it from the reverse perspective:

A shadow, more intelligent than its kin, is also a wizard. He has 14 shadow minions that he's created via the Create Spawn ability.

He casts shapechange, and turns himself into a red dragon for a while. Does he keep his minions?

Keep in mind that:

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.

 

[IcyCool]

While shapechanged into a shadow, I kill you via Strength damage. I am "your killer." You rise in 1d4 rounds as a shadow, and must obey "your killer." That's me.

When shapechange ends, I'm still "your killer." Accordingly, you are still under the control of "your killer."

You no longer have the ability that grants you control over your victims when the shapechange ends.

Look at it from the reverse perspective:

A shadow, more intelligent than its kin, is also a wizard. He has 14 shadow minions that he's created via the Create Spawn ability.

He casts shapechange, and turns himself into a red dragon for a while. Does he keep his minions?

You lose your own Su abilities, so until you turn back into a Shadow you would lose the ability to control your minions.

 

[IcyCool]

By your definition, the following (however unlikely), could occur:

Round 1: Shadow reduces Bob to 0 strength, killing him. (3 or 4 is rolled on the 1d4 rounds later)

Round 2: Sam uses a Wish to bring Bob back to life.

Round 3: Sam decides he wants a Shadow minion, so he kills Bob.

Round 4 or Round 5: Bob now rises as a Shadow under Sam's control.

 

[gabrion]

A few things...

1) I couldn't figure out why people kept talking about domain lords and stuff until someone asked what RL stood for a little while ago. Sorry for the confusion, but I use RL to mean real life on these boards.

2) Rule Zero stuff-Yes DMs still have control over the game, but the emphasis is now on making sure that everyone (even the DM) is working with the same set of rules. Maybe the PCs don't have knowledge of all those rules (and maybe they don't have access to all parts of the game, such as PrC), but the example of which we speak doesn't fit that mold. The Shapechange spell implies that the character, if they are familiar enough with the creature to shapechange into it in the first place, know what they are getting into.

3) Patryn seems to have the right of things on how the ability works. The shadow doesn't have a seperate ability called "control spawn," they just have one called "create spawn." Once shapechanged out of shadow form the character no longer has the ability to create spawn, but the effects of doing so while in that form are still present. If this is not accepted then all effects derived from supernatural abilities during shapechange would have to end when the spell expires. Patryn has given some examples that illustrate this quite well.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You no longer have the ability that grants you control over your victims when the shapechange ends.

But the shadow doesn't have the abilities:

Create Spawn (Su): Whenever a shadow kills a creature by reducing it's Strength to 0, that creature rises as a shadow 1d4 rounds later.
Control Spawn (Su): A shadow gains control over any shadows it creates using its Create Spawn ability.

Rather, it has the ability to create spawn which are subservient to it.

When a shadow loses access to Create Spawn (for whatever reason), he loses the ability to create spawn which are subservient to him.

Why, then, are the previously-created shadows no longer subservient? It is a trait of the spawn, not of the controller.