Help me stop my Player!

[irdeggman]

You were saying that the shadows would maliciously misinterpret orders to the detriment of the player. They have no reason to do so, especially if the orders of the player are something like 'kill them'. Whether Int 6 is sufficient to come up with a way to do this at all is up for debate.

I was looking more at the way that compulsions work since that is essentially what is happening. The creature under the compulsion does pretty much exactly what he is commanded to and nothing more - i.e., no freebies (I know I quoted that thng about compulsions). My point being that shadows would do what shadow normally do when not under the compulsion.

Now as far as Int 6 goes - I'm pretty sure there are still a few 6 int 1/2 orc barbarians out there and they are capable of simple tactics, well at least the smash them to little pieces type of tactics.

And I'm also fairly certain that familiars and paladin mounts are quite capable of some sort of actions on their own, at least most every one I've ever seen played gets some, if only simple kind of independent actions.

I would imagine that the first order the player would pass down to his shadow army would be, "do not attack me or my party under any circumstances". And it will be followed.

And that would work since it is a a specific command/order.

That begs the question, then: how does real shadows control other shadows? They must have some way of to do so? Maybe they use gestures.

Probably mentally (see the command undead aspect of clerics - you know the one you pointed out earlier).

 

[IcyCool]

I'll just go ahead and change the Shadow's Create Spawn ability to behave like pretty much all of the other Create Spawn abilities in the MM and solve this little problem with a house rule.

Patryn, I'm still curious why my example, by the wording of the Shadow's ability and your interpretation, would not work?

 

[TheGM]

What rules support this?Does the ability say that the newly created spawn are controlled by the shadow that made them? No. Does the ability say that the newly created spawn are controlled by their killer? Yes. Is the character still the one that killed the villager, even when he is not a shadow? Yes.

To see why the wording makes a difference, check out the similar abilities that wraiths and wights have.

I think I'm on the wrong thread

All of this seems oddly obsessed with rules to me. Who cares what the wording is if it doesn't work? No set of rules is perfect (don't tell the guys at Kenzer I said that).

Sometimes, sanity and storyline must take precedence. This isn't chess.

If you want to call it "House Rule" that's great with me, I consider it "common sense rules over books".

 

[AuraSeer]

Even if that's true, where does it say that the creator of the spawn has mental control over his spawn? It merely says, "under the control."

Now, you might read that as being constant mental contact, but it certainly isn't required by the ability.

Now you're quibbling, but fine, it's not necessarily mental control. It could be some other undefined kind of control or influence. All we know is that magic is involved, as indicated by the fact that Create Spawn is a supernatural ability.

Please explain why magical control of an undead creature would continue after the source of the magic stops. (If your explanation involves assuming that taking control is an Instantaneous effect, please give some proof or evidence supporting your assumption.)

 

[werk]

I would think the real issue with his strategy is the fact that he's in Ravenloft. I went there with a CN evoker and came back a super scary freak because of questionable actions. I can only imagine what would happen if you lead a small army of undead in killing helpless innocents.

As DM, I would focus on the ramifications of the actions rather than the actions themselves, due to the setting. Go around the problem.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Now you're quibbling

I'm quibbling?

(If your explanation involves assuming that taking control is an Instantaneous effect, please give some proof or evidence supporting your assumption.)

Examine any other effect which creates undead. They are all non-dispellable, and are instantaneous, otherwise Dispel Magic would be the best way to destroy undead. (The only one I am not sure of is the warlock's invocation, which I believe is still instantaneous, but the undead so created crumble away a number of rounds later unless a material component is provided.)

Examine the rules for golem creation.

A golem’s creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet and can see and hear its creator. If uncommanded, a golem usually follows its last instruction to the best of its ability, though if attacked it returns the attack.

A golem is created via magic and in its creation is bound to obey its creator, and *it* doesn't require some form of on-going mental link to command.

Why not shadows?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I would think the real issue with his strategy is the fact that he's in Ravenloft.

He's not; the OP meant "RL" as in "Real Life" as opposed to "PBEM" or "PbP," not as in "Ravenloft."

 

[werk]

He's not; the OP meant "RL" as in "Real Life" as opposed to "PBEM" or "PbP," not as in "Ravenloft."

A real life fantasy campaign? That sounds like a contradiction or oxymoron or something.

Maybe he should get sucked into ravenloft when he does the dastardly deed

 

[AuraSeer]

Yes, creating the undead is an instantaneous effect, but no one is disputing that. The question is about the control effect.

Your analogy to golem creation is a good point, one I hadn't considered, but I don't think this is entirely the same. A golem is without any mind or motivation, and will do nothing unless ordered by its creator. That seems to be the general rule for created mindless creatures.

A shadow is self-aware and has its own mind (because it has an Int score). It is capable of making decisions and taking actions under its own will, just like any other intelligent creature. Taking away an intelligent creature's control of itself is not the same as issuing orders to a mindless automaton.

AFAICT, everywhere in the rules where controlling a non-mindless creature is allowed, it requires some sort of ongoing effect, whether it's charm or dominate or an evil cleric's rebuking.

Perhaps this is supposed to be whole new special, unique form of critter control that applies to a few kinds of spawned undead, yet was never labelled or explained as such anywhere. But since you haven't shown any evidence to support that, I still think the ambiguous writing is leading you to misinterpret it.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yes, creating the undead is an instantaneous effect, but no one is disputing that. The question is about the control effect.

Your analogy to golem creation is a good point, one I hadn't considered, but I don't think this is entirely the same.

...

A shadow is self-aware and has its own mind (because it has an Int score). It is capable of making decisions and taking actions under its own will, just like any other intelligent creature. Taking away an intelligent creature's control of itself is not the same as issuing orders to a mindless automaton.

Except that vampires work the same way:

Create Spawn (Su): A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn (see the Vampire Spawn entry) 1d4 days after burial.

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

It also doesn't mention mental control - and it is certainly not an Enchantment effect, as you mention later in your post, because undead are immune to Mind-Affecting effects (and thus the Enchantment school as a whole).

AFAICT, everywhere in the rules where controlling a non-mindless creature is allowed, it requires some sort of ongoing effect, whether it's charm or dominate or an evil cleric's rebuking.

Ah, so let's look at an Evil cleric's ability to command undead, shall we?

Commanded: A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric.

Here, it is specifically called out that a commanded undead is, in fact, under mental control. Similarly, the Dominate Person spell says:

You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind.

It's not so called out in any other case (see the vampire above) which means you have one of two choices:

1) They really meant it to be ongoing mental control, but just forgot to write it explicitly
2) When they meant something to be ongoing mental control, they specifically said it was mental control, and since they didn't here, it isn't

Personally, my opinion is that it's the 2nd. For some reason, when you spawn an undead, that undead is bound to follow your commands, even when it doesn't like it. It's magic.