Help me stop my Player!

[IcyCool]

What happens if we skip step 3?

Why, Bob becomes a shadow under command of the creature who killed him of course!

Drat! I was going to ask that!

To further this point:

Situation A:
1. Shadow A kills Bob via Strength damage.
2. 1d4 rounds pass.

What happens?

Bob becomes a shadow under control of Shadow A.

Situation B:
1. Shadow A kills Bob via Strength damage.
2. Cleric casts Raise Dead on Bob.
3. 1d4 rounds pass.

What happens?

Raise Dead takes either a minute or 10 minutes to cast, so Bob becomes a shadow under control of Shadow A and the Raise Dead fails because it can't raise a creature turned into undead.

Situation C:
1. Shadow A kills Bob via Strength damage.
2. Cleric casts Resurrection on Bob.
3. 1d4 rounds pass.

What happens?

Resurrection takes 10 minutes to cast, so Bob becomes a shadow under control of Shadow A and the Resurrection fails because it can't raise a creature turned into undead.

Situation D:
1. Shadow A kills Bob via Strength damage.
2. Cleric casts Resurrection on Bob.
3. Vampire B kills Bob via Con damage.
4. 1d4 rounds pass.
5. 1d4 days pass.

What happens?

Looks like Bob becomes a shadow under Shadow A's control, as the Resurrection will fail due to time constraints.

Situation E:
1. Shadow A kills Bob via Strength damage.
2. Cleric casts Resurrection on Bob.
3. Vampire B kills Bob via negative levels.
4. 1d4 rounds pass.
5. 1d4 days pass.

What happens?

Again, Resurrection doesn't work, so Vampire B can't kill Bob, so Bob rises as a shadow under Shadow A's control.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Add "from a scroll" to the above.

Or, if you like, "casts Miracle and emulates ..."

Sheesh.

 

[IcyCool]

Add "from a scroll" to the above.

Or, if you like, "casts Miracle and emulates ..."

Sheesh.

I can't tell if you are getting irritable with me? I read what you wrote, and didn't read anything into what you were saying. If you feel that I did a disservice to you because of that, by all means let me know.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No - there should be on my above. I'll add it now.

 

[IcyCool]

No - there should be on my above. I'll add it now.

Ah, I thought that might be the case, but sometimes you never know.

And now, on with the show!

Situation B:
1. Shadow A kills Bob via Strength damage.
2. Cleric casts Raise Dead from a scroll on Bob.
3. 1d4 rounds pass.

What happens?

Bob becomes a shadow under control of Shadow A.

Situation C:
1. Shadow A kills Bob via Strength damage.
2. Cleric casts Resurrection from a scroll on Bob.
3. 1d4 rounds pass.

What happens?

Bob becomes a shadow under control of Shadow A

Situation D:
1. Shadow A kills Bob via Strength damage.
2. Cleric casts Resurrection from a scroll on Bob.
3. Vampire B kills Bob via Con damage.
4. 1d4 rounds pass.
5. 1d4 days pass.

What happens?

Would you consider the Create Spawn via Con drain to be subject to the same '1d4 days after burial' limitation as the energy drain?

Situation E:
1. Shadow A kills Bob via Strength damage.
2. Cleric casts Resurrection from a scroll on Bob.
3. Vampire B kills Bob via negative levels.
4. 1d4 rounds pass.
5. 1d4 days pass.

What happens?

Bob becomes a Shadow under Shadow A's control, and then turns into a Vampire Spawn under control of Vampire B 1d4 days after burial. Note, if Bob isn't buried*, Bob doesn't become a vampire spawn.

*Buried doesn't appear to be a game term, so this one seems to be up to GM's interpretation.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Interesting. You chose to place no importance on the word "rises" in the Vampire entry?

Actually, going back over the rules, we may be getting ahead of ourselves.

At what point is the new spawn considered to be undead? You'll note that none of the "bring back the dead" spells work on a creature that is currently undead - and only Resurrection and True Resurrection work on a creature that used to be undead and has been subsequently destroyed.

So, if you are considered an undead creature (though, admittedly a nascent undead creature) as soon as the initial conditions for Create Spawn are met, then the oddness we are currently discussing can't happen.

 

[IcyCool]

Interesting. You chose to place no importance on the word "rises" in the Vampire entry?

I'm pretty sure it's not a game term, and so is in the realm of DM fiat.

Actually, going back over the rules, we may be getting ahead of ourselves.

At what point is the new spawn considered to be undead? You'll note that none of the "bring back the dead" spells work on a creature that is currently undead - and only Resurrection and True Resurrection work on a creature that used to be undead and has been subsequently destroyed.

So, if you are considered an undead creature (though, admittedly a nascent undead creature) as soon as the initial conditions for Create Spawn are met, then the oddness we are currently discussing can't happen.

You don't become a shadow until the 1d4 rounds expires. I'm not sure where you are reading that Bob is considered undead as soon as the shadow reduces him to 0 strength. Could you point out where it says that?

Edit - Also note that I used Wish in my example because of it's 1 action casting time.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You don't become a shadow until the 1d4 rounds expires.

Not necessarily.

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.

Let's say a shadow kills you via Strength damage in round 10, after your action, and rolls a 1 on the 1d4. What is your character's status at his initiative count in Round 11?

Note that you're only a viable target for Raise Dead, et al., if you are a "corpse." If you are, at this point, considered undead by the rules (and are therefore a creature and not an object), those spells don't work.

Moreover:

Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone.

Raise Dead cannot overcome Mummy Rot, for instance, or Bestow Curse. Are we then to suppose that it can overcome the spawn rules?

Certainly, there's nothing that says it can't, but then, there's nothing that says it can, either.

I'm not sure where you are reading that Bob is considered undead as soon as the shadow reduces him to 0 strength. Could you point out where it says that?

Well, that would be my question. At what point do we consider the person slain by the shadow to be undead? Certainly, he's undead 1d4 rounds later, but is he effectively undead as soon as the Create Spawn ability begins to work?

There are two ways in which this situation cleans up very nicely.

1. You are considered undead as soon as you are subject to a create spawn ability; or,
2. Spells like Raise Dead, etc., prevent a particular instance of the create spawn ability from working (i.e., they "cure" it).

I'm looking for rules text to either support or deny either of the above statements.

 

[IcyCool]

Let's say a shadow kills you via Strength damage in round 10, after your action, and rolls a 1 on the 1d4. What is your character's status at his initiative count in Round 11?

Your action comes before the shadows? Then you are Dead on your initiative count in round 11. When it rolls around to the Shadow's initiative count on Round 11, you are now a Shadow.

Note that you're only a viable target for Raise Dead, et al., if you are a "corpse." If you are, at this point, considered undead by the rules (and are therefore a creature and not an object), those spells don't work.

Right, as per the spell descriptions. Which is why, you'll note, that I said that a 3 or 4 was rolled on the 1d4 in my first scenario.

Raise Dead cannot overcome Mummy Rot, for instance, or Bestow Curse. Are we then to suppose that it can overcome the spawn rules?

That depends, is the Strength damage done by a Shadow considered a magical disease or a curse? Nope. So the spell will work just fine. (Note, if somehow you manage to prove that the Strength damage done by a Shadow is considered one of those two things, then you are correct. The spell would autofail because it would bring you back to life, and the "Shadow Disease" would kill you again. I'm fairly certain that you are in no danger of proving this though. )

Well, that would be my question. At what point do we consider the person slain by the shadow to be undead? Certainly, he's undead 1d4 rounds later, but is he effectively undead as soon as the Create Spawn ability begins to work?

Unless the ability states that he becomes undead right away (and I somehow missed it), where are you getting that?

There are two ways in which this situation cleans up very nicely.

1. You are considered undead as soon as you are subject to a create spawn ability; or,
2. Spells like Raise Dead, etc., prevent a particular instance of the create spawn ability from working (i.e., they "cure" it).

I'm looking for rules text to either support or deny either of the above statements.

I'm betting you won't find one for #1. And as for #2, those spells don't prevent it. Nothing about the Create Spawn ability for the shadow states that the victim must remain at 0 Strength. Therefore, as wonky as it sounds, you can have shadow A kill Bob (and roll a 4 on its 1d4), Sam Raise Dead (from a scroll) Bob, and Bob become a shadow on shadow A's initiative count in the 4th round.

 

[seans23]

Resurrection takes 10 minutes to cast, so Bob becomes a shadow under control of Shadow A and the Resurrection fails because it can't raise a creature turned into undead.

Resurrection will succeed if you destroy the undead first. Are you just saying that it wouldn't work during those 1d4 rounds?