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D&D 4E Help me understand 4e

That's a good chunk of what I meant. Encounters take sooooo long when done right. an hour or two to resolve a combat and 10 minutes of narrative then, right back to the combat. It seems like the non-combat parts of the game just become a framing story for the tactical board game.

Honestly, this is really just nitpicking at this point on my part. My players are all hack n slash kick in the door people. I can dangle plot threads and obvious hooks in front of them all day but their first reaction to anything is if it isn't trying to pay them or asking for help, it needs to be killed. Sometimes the lines blur on those two exceptions...

Since I came to 4e from an AD&D background I noticed this at first too. I thought I was doing something wrong or I had defective players...

Then I realized that I was much more in the AD&D frame of mind where I would have to spend the next hour exploring and searching after a fight. So I was pressuring myself to get past the fight.

The other thing I came to realize is that my players will go up a level in 6-8 encounters. So really clearing through it all fast isn't necessary compared to older editions. Since then... I let it flow at its own pace, and I started becoming a fan of shorter adventures (Delves), and trying to make the non action encounters more set pieces as well.

I think 4e does have a different pace, and you just have to find its groove.
 

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About one hit in two attacks should be fine :) (I was thinking of one DM I've played with who was spending his entire encounter budget on one or two higher level monsters - often soldiers. 15s to hit were not uncommon - one monster we faced at third level had AC24 - and another was a roc that gained the ability to hover...)

This is a good point that the DMG's encounter guidelines don't really harp on enough. You can make an encounter that is within the budget but is still going to be really sloggy if you use only a couple overlevel monsters, especially (MM1/2 style) soldiers (and REALLY especially if they are elite). Unfortunately the DMG doesn't really say outright "you are really best off using the encounter templates". They present them, but they don't exactly say they are more than just a possible way to build an encounter. Really they are a pretty good hard guide to what you should do, at least starting out. You certainly can ignore them once you have a bit of experience with encounter design, but I'd advise sticking pretty close and being especially leery of higher level soldiers. The MM3 monsters OTOH all have pretty close to the same base level defenses, so you have less issues with MM3 soldiers being unhittable (and solo and elite monsters no longer have higher defenses either as of DMG2/MM2).

As others have said as well, leader buff/debuff SHOULD factor in a good bit. The cleric for instance hitting with Righteous Brand can really up the striker's effectiveness, but they have to know to get into that level of coordination. The striker flanking with the defender for example is another one that they should get in the habit of. Finally of course the optimum use of encounter/daily powers helps a lot too. Dropping Brute Strike on the monster when you have flanking and Righteous Brand both buffing your attack is gold.

This is a bit of a thing with 4e, it sort of builds in a bit of an expectation that the players will think tactically to some degree and take good advantage of these kinds of things. Some groups unfortunately never really 'get' those tactics. You can compensate with giving them better items or a bit weaker foes or better tactical advantage so they don't have to chew through the monsters so slowly if they are not going to play tactically, it will be more fun for them, though they aren't the 'best' at combat in the world that really doesn't matter if it's fun.

Toss in plenty of terrain powers and such as well. That can also help with poor tactics. If the party can do some clever cool trick that whacks a monster every combat it will speed things up a lot. Plus it is ever so cool for them. Again the DMG doesn't really emphasize that point enough. It gives you the tools but there could be more discussion of how to make sure all the elements are put together well for each encounter.
 

Ok, I just ordered the rules compendium and pre-ordred the monster vault from amazon. So, new question...

In terms of session planning and table book needs, will the compendium replace the original phb and dmg books rules and mechanics wise? I assume the original books are still needed for classes and flavor, just altering in favor of errata but for live use the essentials books are what I need?

Also, how does the monster vault work in light of the changes in mm3? Does it replace the first 3 books in favor of essentials monsters or is it just a parallel monster list?
 

Ok, I just ordered the rules compendium and pre-ordred the monster vault from amazon. So, new question...

In terms of session planning and table book needs, will the compendium replace the original phb and dmg books rules and mechanics wise? I assume the original books are still needed for classes and flavor, just altering in favor of errata but for live use the essentials books are what I need?

Also, how does the monster vault work in light of the changes in mm3? Does it replace the first 3 books in favor of essentials monsters or is it just a parallel monster list?

The RC definitely replaces the PHB1 entirely as far as general rules go. It doesn't provide much in the way of encounter building guidelines and doesn't cover things like building monsters or NPCs at all. It pretty much lacks rules for things like stunts as well, though it does a good job of generally covering skill use, 'page 42' doesn't have an exact equivalent. For use at the table it pretty well does the job, but you really would want to have either the DMGs or maybe the DM's Kit for additional material related to designing adventures. I haven't got a DMK but even there my impression is it is a lot less oriented towards building your own encounters and adventures are more towards stuff you need to know to RUN them. For an experienced DM I'd say these books are fine. Ironically for one just starting out I'd still have to recommend the 4e DMGs as much more thorough and containing some really good info Essentials skips.

Note that the RC has general rules for pretty much everything, but it lacks ANY kind of item content. They cover magic items, but there are none in the book. They cover weapons and armor, but there are no weapon or armor tables. They at least mention rituals, but there are none in the book, same with traps, terrain, etc. It is strictly a 'what is the rule for this' book.

Looks like the MV is a perfectly fine stand-alone monster book. It overlaps with the MM series to a limited extent, for instance there are a bunch of new versions of dragons. In a lot of cases it presents new variations of classic monsters, like humanoids, which you can use as your stock orcs and such, but the older versions are still around and could be used together with the new ones. The new monsters conform to the newest monster design guidelines and are more polished than (particularly MM1) monsters. Still, a lot of old monsters are perfectly good. I don't see a TON of reason to get MM1, but you may find some gaps in your lineup without it. If you have DDI/MB then you have those statblocks though. MM3 is a good book with pretty much modern fun monsters, you might consider it as a good supplement to MV. MM2 is a bit more in-between. The monsters ARE more refined than MM1 monsters, but they aren't as slick as the new monsters and don't have all the updated defense and damage tweaks. Again, if you have an MB then MM2 probably isn't that needed.

Obviously if you have RC, DMK, MV, and an HotF* book you're pretty much fully covered. I still think the DMGs are worthwhile, and MM3 is probably worthwhile, but the other books probably not unless you desire to play older classes. Sounds like PHB1 classes will be reprinted in Feb, so that book is probably just not worth having at all anymore. PHB2 has a lot of good stuff. It may or may not get rehashed but it could be a while. That one might be good to grab if you can. PHB3 meh. I mean if you want psionics then that is probably the only place you're going to get them in the foreseeable future. The * Power books could be fun if you have PHB1/2 etc. Certainly not vital if you mainly play Essentials.
 

Gotcha gotcha. I've got all 9 books in the matrix, so I was just needing to know which to ignore and which to keep around. I was told there was no specific item content in the RC so keeping the books around for that at the minimum is needed. The DMGs are useful no matter what for the fact they are mostly "How to be a DM" than their specific rules and content, so those stay. I think my players may wish to switch to the new builds for their classes, I don't know for sure yet. I'll be picking up the class books just for completeness.

I'm guess when it comes to the monsters, that if they don't have a direct replacement in the newer books to just apply the errata to the statblocks and be done with it.
 

I'm guess when it comes to the monsters, that if they don't have a direct replacement in the newer books to just apply the errata to the statblocks and be done with it.

Yes, that works, but again it's still DM's discretion, if you like it pre-erratta, just be up-front that you're not using the errattaed version. It's YOUR game.
 

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