Level Up (A5E) Help me understand the Marshal

[zen_cat]

I love the idea of the Marshal class, but am concerned that at lower levels the marshal isn't going to be as effective as other characters, and I want to make sure I'm not missing something in how the rules work.

At 1st level you get Commanding Presence, which at that stage only works on allies within 10 ft. If I'm reading it correctly, it allows you to give one of your attacks to an ally, and it costs them a reaction. This seems like a poor trade, as two of any other class could get the same amount of attacks, but they would be able to use manuvers or spells, and no one would need to spend their reaction. Am I missing something?

You also get rallying surge, which at 1st level will heal someone for 1d8+1, recharging on a long rest, which seems like a good secondary ability.

In comparison to this, a Fighter gets 3 manuvers, a fighting style, and a soldiering knack. So at first level it seems that the party is less effective if it contains a marshal.

At 2nd level, the marshal starts to get half as many manuvers as the fighter does at this stage, and their first lesson of war, which seems equivalent to the knack that fighters get at 1st level.

At 3rd level, everyone gets archetypes (yay!). Marshals get Mark Foe, which is a solid ability, adding an expertise dice to attacks against one enemy, and arguably stronger than the Manuver specialization that fighters get at this level. Notably, marshal archetypes don't get an extra manuver school like the Fighter.

Based on the first three levels, it seems to me like the Marshal isn't a great choice, unless I'm missing something. Does anyone have any experience with marshals in their game? Do you use any houserules?

 

[xiphumor]

Being a Marshal is about finding places other people will be more effective rather than being effective yourself, per se.

Does your party have a Rogue? They now sneak attack twice as often.

A Ranger? Free accuracy bonus.

Berserker? Another chance for a furious critical.

Any cantrips that aren’t worth using on your turn such as Resistance or Spare the Dying? Feel free!

And you don’t have to commit to any of these!

Throw in basically a twinned, and stronger, healing word a level 3, as well as a bless variant with no concentration as a bonus action, and you have something special!

 

[noodohs]

There's also something to be said for the fact that not everything in the game is about DPS. An awful lot of the game doesn't happen in combat. The Marshal is a character who is a martial, a support class, and has charisma. You lose raw effectiveness on some things to gain utility elsewhere. As for Commanding Presence, it's really about deciding who is the better fit for that attack. Maybe your movement wasn't enough to get you in range of the enemy, but your ally is already there and within 10 feet of you. Now they get to attack when you couldn't. Maybe they just outright do more damage then you, now they get to attack instead of you. It's situational, but the class is all about options.

 

[Pedantic]

Yeah, the Marshal in my campaign is pretty happy, though we did start at level 3. Mark Foe is exceptionally good, and they're fine with maneuvers. Remember the fighter is slightly ahead of all the other martial classes there, so the Marshal is on par with a ranger or barbarian in that department.

The martial plays a little like a fighter if there's a lot of enemies, and then closes with the adept and usually hands off attacks to turn when they're paired against a shared target.

The archetype 3rd level abilities are all quite good as well, they're on Talented Tactician in my group, and that's a ton of bonus accuracy.

 

[xiphumor]

Yeah, the Marshal in my campaign is pretty happy, though we did start at level 3. Mark Foe is exceptionally good, and they're fine with maneuvers. Remember the fighter is slightly ahead of all the other martial classes there, so the Marshal is on par with a ranger or barbarian in that department.

The martial plays a little like a fighter if there's a lot of enemies, and then closes with the adept and usually hands off attacks to turn when they're paired against a shared target.

The archetype 3rd level abilities are all quite good as well, they're on Talented Tactician in my group, and that's a ton of bonus accuracy.

Why the adept? Adepts would seem to get the least use out of a Marshal with their many, small attacks.

 

[Pedantic]

He's got higher damage potential still. We're in a zeitgeist campaign, so the Marshal is mostly focused around using a couple pistols for a few shots to open, then moving to melee with a shield/shortsword for a particularly high AC.

 

[WarDriveWorley]

There's also something to be said for the fact that not everything in the game is about DPS. An awful lot of the game doesn't happen in combat. The Marshal is a character who is a martial, a support class, and has charisma. You lose raw effectiveness on some things to gain utility elsewhere. As for Commanding Presence, it's really about deciding who is the better fit for that attack. Maybe your movement wasn't enough to get you in range of the enemy, but your ally is already there and within 10 feet of you. Now they get to attack when you couldn't. Maybe they just outright do more damage then you, now they get to attack instead of you. It's situational, but the class is all about options.

I came here to basically say this. the Marshal is a great support martial class. Their job is to make others better. A good Marshal will be effective in encounters (social or combat), but will also make their companions better by being near them.

As @xiphumor pointed out the commanding presence is about more than just swapping who has attacks and will be dependent on your party make up. Having a rogue in the group means you can legit get 2 to 3 sneak attacks per round (3rd on attacks of opportunity if they pop up) before counting the rogue's build. Extra attacks with an eldritch blast for a warlock? Sure. The options just go on an on.

In one of my games a player has a 5th level Elven Marshal that sits back with the sorcerer and feeds the sorcerer attacks with their cantrips then uses a bow to attack as needed. They're mobile support. Nothing spectacular DPS wise, but great for boosting others and helping out during exploration with the Teamwork, Soldier Kitting, and Rewarding Repute Lessons of War. The whole party gets boosts off these.

 

[xiphumor]

@WarDriveWorley Hold up. Warlock's Eldritch Blast is no longer a cantrip, so unless you're using Eldritch Scythe which specifically states that it takes the place of a weapon attack, I don't think it qualifies. Actually, I'm not even sure that Eldrtich Scythe qualifies, as it specifies that it has to be part of the Attack action or an opportunity attack.

I'd love to be proven wrong here. Perhaps one of the devs can weigh in?

 

[WarDriveWorley]

@WarDriveWorley Hold up. Warlock's Eldritch Blast is no longer a cantrip, so unless you're using Eldritch Scythe which specifically states that it takes the place of a weapon attack, I don't think it qualifies. Actually, I'm not even sure that Eldrtich Scythe qualifies, as it specifies that it has to be part of the Attack action or an opportunity attack.

I'd love to be proven wrong here. Perhaps one of the devs can weigh in?

Sugar.. you're right. Mixed up my versions here. That's my bad. I'm fairly certain you're right that it doesn't fully qualify and thanks for pointing it out.

 

[noodohs]

You'd also lose your attack of opportunity since you have to use your reaction to make the attack granted by Commanding Presence. But still, the general point stands.

 

[xiphumor]

You'd also lose your attack of opportunity since you have to use your reaction to make the attack granted by Commanding Presence. But still, the general point stands.

Not a problem if you’re ranged anyway!

 

[Sepaulchre]

I think the Marshal is undertuned at the moment. To me it feels balanced for O5e, but martial classes in A5e are substantially boosted. For example, handing a sneak attack out to the rogue is great, but a rogue in A5e has an easier time triggering a reaction attack through maneuvers. Moreover, the boost to martials in general raises the opportunity cost against running a marshal instead of a fighter, berserker, or even just a second rogue. I’d be open to persuasion, though, and certainly the marshal has a fun role play niche. A cool concept, but I think it could use a boost. (A caveat: the 10th level ability is cool and potentially extremely good in high level campaigns, when you can hand out maneuvers as a reaction that allow multiple attacks but aren’t limited by Extra Attack’s requirement that it be “on your turn.”)

My best use case for a marshal is a cheesy 1 level dip on a eldritch-scythe thirsting-blade Pact-of-the-Blade warlock, which lets you hand off a reaction weapon attack to a friend and use eldritch scythe with no trade off.

 

[xiphumor]

The Marshal does seem to have fewer features than some of the other classes, but I’m planning on playing one shortly (as a minotaur!) so I’ll soon see for myself what the class can do.

 

[Valrei]

I do feel as if the writer of the Marshall class was more concerned for balanced than many of the other writers were. (no judgement here, I can see the value in power fantasies as well as balance)
However I am currently playing a Marshal in a campaign with a (quite well optimised) rogue and a barbarian and I definitely do not feel underpowered. Allowing the rogue (which is generally balanced for having only attack per round) to attack another time feels very powerful indeed. But granted in an average party he probably gets less power than other classes. Although a thorough read of his level 5 feature does seem to allow you to grant an attack and a maneuver simultaneously, this gives attack and utility at once. Even better at level 10 you can use any maneuver you know with this. I havent fully explored this yet since I've only recently gotten to level 5 but this sounds very powerful especially since some maneuvers allow the user to attack their full amount of attacks. Now I'm not sure if this is rules as intended but it seems to be that RAW that means you can allow an ally to attack AND use a maneuver that allows them to use their full amount of attacks.
Combat directives wording that I base that assumption on:

"In addition, when a creature uses your Commanding Presence to make an attack, it can simultaneously use one Sanguine Knot combat maneuver that you know."

Keywords being "in addition" and "simultaneously".
(the level 10 feat changes the sanguine knot requirement to include any maneuver that you know, with martial scholar or a level in fighter your choice is quite broad)

An oddity that I find is that the marshal can not normally take maneuvers from the adamant mountain school since that is the one that most aids tanks and Marshal seems like a good supporting, tanking class.
However that is easily fixed by taking the martial scholar feat, now you will perhaps say "but my ASI!!" however Marshall does not really have a main stat: charisma, yeah nice for flavour but is actually only used in your level 14 and level 20 skills. Other than that a primary attack skill is nice, but not required, if you are not good at attacking yourself, just let your allies do it. So taking a feat instead of an ASI becomes very tempting.

BTW if you want to minmax the marshal, go with gambling general probably, Talented tactician is nice but kind of overkill since you already get to hand out attack bonuses with mark foe (level 3). I've chosen Talented tactician and while it feels pretty good to be able to give bonuses to attack from 2 sources it kind of becomes overkill a lot of the time. Better to exchange some of that accuracy for damage.

(also Talented Tactician, Swift Strategist, Gambling General, nice alliteration there Mike Myler, which is also alliteration, are you an avid alliteration appreciator?)

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Combat directives wording that I base that assumption on:

"In addition, when a creature uses your Commanding Presence to make an attack, it can simultaneously use one Sanguine Knot combat maneuver that you know."

Keywords being "in addition" and "simultaneously".

the "in addition" here is referring to the previous paragraph. it's "In addition (to gaining a Sanguine Knot combat maneuver, since that's basically all the previous paragraph amounts to)", not "In addition (to making an attack)". that said, i think the "simultaneously" means your reading here is still correct. keep in mind the target's the one spending exertion points though...but yeah, this reads pretty powerful to me.

 

[timespike]

IMHO, a lot of the Marshal's value shows up in the social and exploration pillars; it's spread more evenly across the three than something like the fighter.

They start getting followers for free at level 5. Their knacks can let their companions march further or carry more than they could otherwise. They do eventually get a third attack (at the same time as a fighter), a free stronghold, the ability to hand out saving throw rerolls, etc.

But they're an officer; they won't be as good as straight-up fighting as an enlisted man (fighter) because that's not the entirety of their job.

 

[thuter]

All I can add to this: Wielding a Rogue is better than any weapon a Fighter could hope for, and being Valrei's Rogue weapon is fun and very strong indeed. Being nigh unable to miss attacks due to Mark Foe and the Tactician die is great for high-damage single attacks. We did mock him when he wanted to buy a mace as an alternative to his spear, because he basically never attacks anyways. Also the constant: "Hey, how about you shoot that one again?" "Oh, of course! How did I not think of that?" Never gets old.