Help me understand the paladin.

I hope you don't mind me simply asking my question here instead of a new thread. In our game, the paladin was adjacent to a kobold at the start of his turn. He attacked the kobold, then moved away (provoking), and then used on a divine challenge on that kobold. (a) Is it legal? If yes, (b) is it the intent behind divine challenge? He didn't challenge the kobold first because he figured he might kill him on the attack and was saving the challenge for the other kobold he moved up to.

No, he can't do this because after he marks the target, he must engage the kobold, which he has not. What he can do is mark the kobold at the start of his turn, then attack it, then move away. Same result, just different order.

The intent behind the engagement requirement for divine challenge is so that the paladin can't easily play chase with his marks (that's the swordmage's schtick).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I disagree, Fighter's are better Defenders. I'm not saying that fighter is a better class, but if all you're measuring is how good a defender each class is the fighter is the clear winner. Though it may be that we're arguing from different definitions of Defender. For me being 'sticky' is the defining element of the defeder role.

I tend to evaluate the game from an action economy impact perspective. Leaders give actions to allys or make allies actions more effective, while defenders and controllers take actions away from enemies or make enemies actions less effective. Strikers are an interesting case in that their action economy effect is backloaded, but they're not really material for this conversation.

Assuming the above definition is valid, the question of who's the better defender comes down to who causes their enemies to use their actions less efficeintly. An attack against a defender is less efficient than an attack against another party member, defenders incentivise enemies to attack by marking them, therefore the defender that can incentivise more enemies to attack him, by marking more enemies, has an edge in this catagory. Point Fighter.

Wow. I think you hit the nail on the head. Sticky is not the definition of the defenders role in my opinion.

The defenders role is to control the damage flow of the enemies to the party, minimizing the total damage the party takes and spreading the damage they do take in the least harmful way possible (as a side note the controllers role is to minimize the effectiveness of enemies actions by forcing them into sub optimal strategies.)

Stickiness is a means to that end, but not the only one. If you're definition of defender is a ball of glue and duct tape then fighters are the idea defender. But there are plenty of ways to do the same job.

Cadfan has covered a lot of the responses I would have given. Here's a few more.

Damage = one way to be sticky
If the enemy shifts away the fighter gets an immediate interrupt attack, and unless another of the fighters ally was within shifting distance the enemy still has to move after his shift, leaving him no action left to make the attack that would trigger the palladin's punishment. if the enemy moves away the fighter gets an OA, which might prevent the movement altogether, which means the enemy won't be attacking an ally, so no pally damage in that case either.
Want to get away from a fighter? move, eat the attack and get your movement action ended, then charge away. No more OA's available to the fighter to stop you and you've moved away before the attack so the fighters combat challenge can't do anything. Not quite as sticky as advertised.

In order to get the paladin's defender method you have to look at the healing surge situation. Lay on Hands takes Paladin hp and turns it into other party member hp. So the damage that your allies take actually gets taken by the Paladin, allowing him to retroactively act as a defender. Here's where that extra healing surge comes in handy. (I know the "healing" fluff of it makes it seem leadery, but don't be fooled. The mechanic is defender through and through)
Better than the fighter's OAs? The fighter likely has also prioritized Strength, making him equally likely to hit, plus the fighter's OAs have an additional action economy impact that makes them a better defender.
I meant better than a Cha paladin. That was unclear. My bad. Fighters get wisdom to their opportunity attacks plus their +1 to hit from weapon type. There's no way a paladin could outstrip a fighter in OA's.

I'm curious what you think about all the abilities Paladins have that allow them to literally force an enemy to attack them instead of their ally, or to take half of the damage for one ally and other similar effects. Can't get more sticky than that. The enemy is litterally stuck.

Fighters defend by focusing on the enemy.
Swordmages defend at the point of contact.
Paladins defend by focusing on their allies.

Different methods, same role.
 
Last edited:

Wow. I think you hit the nail on the head. Sticky is not the definition of the defenders role in my opinion.

The defenders role is to control the damage flow of the enemies to the party, minimizing the total damage the party takes and spreading the damage they do take in the least harmful way possible (as a side note the controllers role is to minimize the effectiveness of enemies actions by forcing them into sub optimal strategies.)

I think you're drawing an illusory line between the defender and the controller. If the defender spreads damage in the least harmful way possible, that is forcing the enemies into sub optimal strategies, which was how you defined the controller role. I came to this conclusion all the way back in July when I asked myself what a ranged defender would look like, and the answer I came up with was a controller. They do the same job on the battlefield, reducing enemy effectiveness..

Stickiness is a means to that end, but not the only one. If you're definition of defender is a ball of glue and duct tape then fighters are the idea defender. But there are plenty of ways to do the same job.

In order to get the paladin's defender method you have to look at the healing surge situation. Lay on Hands takes Paladin hp and turns it into other party member hp. So the damage that your allies take actually gets taken by the Paladin, allowing him to retroactively act as a defender. Here's where that extra healing surge comes in handy. (I know the "healing" fluff of it makes it seem leadery, but don't be fooled. The mechanic is defender through and through)

This is an interesting angle that I hadn't considered, and its true that it does do something to make the paladin a better defender, however its availability is lacking (Wis modifier number of times per day). I guess the real test would be is the fighter's generally superior mark, and combat superiority funnel more damage to the fighter than the paladin can exchange with allies via lay on hands in a given adventuring day. I really don't know.

I'm curious what you think about all the abilities Paladins have that allow them to literally force an enemy to attack them instead of their ally, or to take half of the damage for one ally and other similar effects. Can't get more sticky than that. The enemy is litterally stuck.

I like them their very defendery, but they're all encounter and daily powers. Contrarily, the fighter's capacity to serve as an effective defender doesn't diminish as a fight, or even an adventuring day drags on, while the paladin's does (limited lay on hands, relying on encounter powers to defend).

I guess I still see the defender role as being about being sticky, getting the enemies damage and/or attacks to stick to you rather than your allies. You're points demonstrated that the paladin was more sticky than I first thought, but I still don't believe him to be the equal of the fighter in that regard.
 

I think you're drawing an illusory line between the defender and the controller. If the defender spreads damage in the least harmful way possible, that is forcing the enemies into sub optimal strategies, which was how you defined the controller role. I came to this conclusion all the way back in July when I asked myself what a ranged defender would look like, and the answer I came up with was a controller. They do the same job on the battlefield, reducing enemy effectiveness..



This is an interesting angle that I hadn't considered, and its true that it does do something to make the paladin a better defender, however its availability is lacking (Wis modifier number of times per day). I guess the real test would be is the fighter's generally superior mark, and combat superiority funnel more damage to the fighter than the paladin can exchange with allies via lay on hands in a given adventuring day. I really don't know.



I like them their very defendery, but they're all encounter and daily powers. Contrarily, the fighter's capacity to serve as an effective defender doesn't diminish as a fight, or even an adventuring day drags on, while the paladin's does (limited lay on hands, relying on encounter powers to defend).

I guess I still see the defender role as being about being sticky, getting the enemies damage and/or attacks to stick to you rather than your allies. You're points demonstrated that the paladin was more sticky than I first thought, but I still don't believe him to be the equal of the fighter in that regard.

Okay, sounds like we're both reasonable people then :heh:.

I'm still trying to find that separation between defender-controller, I can feel it, it's just hard to verbalize. How about

Defenders control enemies actions through target control by being the target/making other targets less desirable.
Controllers control enemy actions by eliminating "optimal" options like moving strait toward an opponent.

I guess it's similar to the leader striker relationship. Strikers do the damage, leaders make them hit harder. Defenders take most of the damage, controllers make everyone else not do much damage at all. What do you think?
Actually that seems pretty close to your thoughts.

So what it comes down to is this;

Paladins use encounter/dailies to take exactly the damage they think is most important.
Fighters use them to mark as many enemys as possible.

Paladins use at wills to prevent damage to their allies with their mark as a supplement.
Fighters use their mark and related abilities to prevent damage to allies by using stickyness.

Fighters are better at defending against lots of little baddies.
Paladins are better at defending against very few big baddies.
 

I agree. If you're staring down a white dragon, you probably want a paladin Defending a bit more than a Fighter. Enfeebling Strike and DC while the party creams it into past is a great way to go. Paladin's debuffs are well suited for taking a lot of the bark out of the dragon's bite.
 

I strongly agree that paladins excel against elite and solo monsters.

Interestingly, paladins are quite good at defending against lots of miniony little baddies. A minion cannot afford to take even one round of DC damage, so the mark is 100% compelling.

A paladin can easily engage one minion (perhaps with a javelin or other ranged attack), mark it with DC, then move adjacent to a second minion. You've just locked down two critters.

They're also particularly effective against soldier monsters. A fighter has a relatively hard time hitting the soldier's AC, but a paladin's DC cuts right through that hard outer shell and goes for the hit-pointy goodness.

I'm playing a Paladin (warlock multiclass -- the feat plus a Master's Wand of Eyebite gives me 2 x Eyebites each encounter) that's highly effective. The DM can either:
- Continually trigger my DC by ignoring the mark which pumps my damage up to striker-like levels, imposes a nice -2 to hit debuff, and doesn't matter in the long run due to LoH (or in the short run with the Hospitaler PP) or...
- Try to go after me at -5 due to being invisible from eyebite, or by provoking OA or having to walk through difficult terrain because I've teleported away (the "mark and run" tactic).

Plus, I have buffs such as shielding smite that will help out my allies even if I'm not adjacent to them. A marked monster going after an ally with a +2 AC buff is essentially -4 to hit -- not bad.

It effectively does the same thing as a fighter, you just have to be clever about it.
 

Remove ads

Top