help me understand the sleep daily wizard power

[evilbob]

The way I interpret this power:

- You cast it on an area.

- Everything in the area is slowed. Save ends.

- For any creatures you hit, when they make a save at the end of their NEXT turn, if they fail they fall unconscious - but a single save ends both this and the slow effect.

So - and sorry if this has been debated before, but I couldn't find any threads about it - why is this good? Enemies have a 55% chance to ignore the primary effect even if you hit them. Additionally, they actually get at least one turn before they can be affected by the spell.

The way I see it: Main advantages: it has a huge range and always slows the targets. This means it's great if you're cool with blowing your daily power before the fight even starts just to slow them from getting to you and your enemies have no significant ranged attacks.

Main disadvantages: no one actually goes to sleep. They all get to attack you before your spell has its primary effect. They have a 55% chance to get up every round even if it works.

So what makes this worthwhile?

 

[Thasmodious]

Try it in game. It works quite well. If you hit a group with it, you will almost always put at least of couple them to sleep (its practically a coin toss for each enemy in the area). They are all slowed for 1 round period. This can be exactly what the party needs to gain the upper hand with tactical positioning. Even those you miss could be slowed for multiple rounds and any that fall asleep miss at least a turn.

A group of mine used the spell to great effect to slow a large group of orcs across a large cavern. Orcs have a racial that gives them extra movement to charge, but sleep cut them to a crawl for the first round and the PCs were able to get to, and hold, a choke point before the orcs stormed through it.

Remember, we are talking odds here. 1 creature has a 55% chance to make his first save. That's just over half the time, just shy of half the time he won't. But the more creatures in the area, the more likely several of them will fail their saves.

 

[Tony Vargas]

IIRC, when saves move you from one condition to another, they also need to move you back. So, if you are slowed, and a failed save renders you unconscious (save ends), then, once you save to end the unconsciousness, you're still slowed until you save. Often you'll see a notation like (save ends both) when that's not the case.

Sleep looks like it's still a good spell, but remains useful much longer than in earlier eds (though it sucks vs Solos who get a +5 to slaves, and isn't so good vs elites with thier +2, either).

Also, you can reduce saves from the standard coin toss. Spell focus gives them a -2, and the Orb Mastery encounter power can inflict a penalty equal to your WIS bonus.

 

[Obryn]

(1) The slow effect is automatic, if you hit. Remember that saves always happen at the end of a character/creature's turn. So, they are - minimally - slowed for one round. If they save, they're no longer slowed. If they fail, only then do they fall asleep. Sure, they get a round of actions, but if your party is doing their job, nobody should be able to get to you very easily.

(2) There are apparently some really broken Sleep/Orb Implement Mastery combos floating around.

(3) The verdict is still out on whether you're still Slowed after you're no longer Unconscious - that the saves are separate. By exact wording, you are.

(4) You're Unconscious, not Asleep - so being attacked won't wake you, by the exact rules.

-O

 

[Mengu]

Think of it more as a slow spell than a sleep spell. Sleep is just a nice secondary effect that works occasionally, and is quite powerful when it does. Here are two good uses (both from the same combat in an actual game).

You're in the middle of a fight against some Kobolds, and you realize some more Kobolds in nearby rooms heard the commotion and will be joining the fray. This is definitely going to be a challenging fight so pulling out a daily is a good idea. As they come into view, you toss a Sleep in their direction catching as many as you can. This gives you and your allies the time they need to dispatch what they are currently fighting.

It just so happens in that fight one of the key enemies fell asleep (they have an equal chance to fall asleep as a minion). Our rogue took the opportunity to slit his throat when he could. Taking out a leader model 2-3 levels higher than us so easily, made up for all the terrible rolls we were getting to dispatch a handful of minions.

 

[Plane Sailing]

IIRC, when saves move you from one condition to another, they also need to move you back. So, if you are slowed, and a failed save renders you unconscious (save ends), then, once you save to end the unconsciousness, you're still slowed until you save. Often you'll see a notation like (save ends both) when that's not the case.

I don't think that is the case.

Sometimes there is an effect which takes place after a save is made, and that is termed an 'aftereffect'. If there is no aftereffect (like with sleep), then the save just ends it.

The notation (save ends both) is for a condition like "dazed and ongoing poison 5", where one save ends both of them.

Cheers

 

[Dausuul]

The way I interpret this power:

- You cast it on an area.

- Everything in the area is slowed. Save ends.

- For any creatures you hit, when they make a save at the end of their NEXT turn, if they fail they fall unconscious - but a single save ends both this and the slow effect.

So - and sorry if this has been debated before, but I couldn't find any threads about it - why is this good? Enemies have a 55% chance to ignore the primary effect even if you hit them. Additionally, they actually get at least one turn before they can be affected by the spell.

The way I see it: Main advantages: it has a huge range and always slows the targets. This means it's great if you're cool with blowing your daily power before the fight even starts just to slow them from getting to you and your enemies have no significant ranged attacks.

Main disadvantages: no one actually goes to sleep. They all get to attack you before your spell has its primary effect. They have a 55% chance to get up every round even if it works.

So what makes this worthwhile?

The sleep spell is meant for dealing with melee enemies at the start of combat, preferably in large numbers. You slow them all for at least a turn, which gives your party that much more time to hit them with ranged attacks; and if you're able to nail four targets or more, odds are good that at least one will be knocked cold for a round or two. Combine with the orb-wielding ability that applies your Wisdom bonus as a penalty to people's saving throws, and you have a fair chance to effectively one-shot at least one of your foes.

It's not the First-Level Death Spell that it was in 2E, but it's still a solid spell if you use it right.

 

[evilbob]

I can see the ranged "let's wear them out before they get to us" or "grab the choke point first!" strategies. But using a daily is also - quite frankly - a hard call to make when you've not even started a battle.

My own experience with sleep is thus: it was cast on 5 creatures who weren't far away, and hit 3. One of the three failed it save on the subsequent round, but by the 2nd round after it was cast, all creatures had made their save. None ended up being impeded by the movement effect to an extent that it kept them from attacking. Net effect: one creature didn't get to attack for one round.

Sure, if we could have gotten to that creature and coup de graced it, that would have helped. And if they creatures had been further away and slow had made much difference, that would have helped. But otherwise it seemed like a very inconsequential spell.


Side question: when can you use your orb to extend an effect? I thought it was something you had to use while you were casting the original spell (designating a target before you knew who had been hit or anything), but some seem to think otherwise? Can you wait until your next turn and see who has been affected and then pick someone then, or can you use it immediately after a spell has been cast, or what?

 

[Mengu]

I can see the ranged "let's wear them out before they get to us" or "grab the choke point first!" strategies. But using a daily is also - quite frankly - a hard call to make when you've not even started a battle.

My own experience with sleep is thus: it was cast on 5 creatures who weren't far away, and hit 3. One of the three failed it save on the subsequent round,

What about the other two targets? You do realize even on a miss, all targets are slowed for the first round.

But otherwise it seemed like a very inconsequential spell.

When the Ranger's daily power Split the Tree misses, it's rather inconsequential too. I find that one of the challenges in 4.0 will be to create the best situation to make those daily and encounter powers consequential.

Side question: when can you use your orb to extend an effect? I thought it was something you had to use while you were casting the original spell (designating a target before you knew who had been hit or anything), but some seem to think otherwise? Can you wait until your next turn and see who has been affected and then pick someone then, or can you use it immediately after a spell has been cast, or what?

My reading of it is that you use the orb on the turn the spell would normally expire. It instead expires at the end of your next turn.

 

[evilbob]

You do realize even on a miss, all targets are slowed for the first round.

Yes. See my OP.

My reading of it is that you use the orb on the turn the spell would normally expire. It instead expires at the end of your next turn.

I don't have my book in front of me, but this sounds reasonable - I guess I need to take another look at what kind of action it is to use an implement. I guess the wand - which adds to a single attack roll - made me think the orb also needs to be used at the same time the spell is cast, before targets are affected.