help me understand the sleep daily wizard power

[Thasmodious]

Not the orb only extends durations on effects that state "ends at the end of your current turn." This wouldn't apply to save effects, so this function of the orb would be useless for sleep. The penalty to save should you get a significant enemy unconscious would be beneficial. Such as, you cast sleep on the enemy kobold shaman and four of his entourage, if you hit him, use the orb to tilt his save and try to get him unconscious. If he goes down, the penalty stays with him for all his other saves against the effect.

 

[The Grackle]

I thought I understood how this power worked, but this actually threw me.

The way I interpret this power:

- You cast it on an area.

- Everything in the area is slowed. Save ends.

- For any creatures you hit, when they make a save at the end of their NEXT turn, if they fail they fall unconscious

this is all correct.

- but a single save ends both this and the slow effect.

um?

You save against all conditions, ongoing damage(s), and persistent effects separately, disregarding the power that caused them. The caveat (save ends both) however, means the power's multiple effects are "linked" and the target makes one save to clear all of them.

That would mean for Sleep you save against KO and slow separately, since it it doesn't have (save ends both).

BUT!

from the PHB page 279 under Saving Throws:
"Some powers create effects that require multiple saving throws to fully escape. These powers include aftereffects that apply after you save against the initial effect. For example, a power might knock you unconscious until you save but have an aftereffect that slows you. Once you save against the unconscious condition, you need to save against the slowed condition before you’ve fully escaped the power’s effects."

(Their example must be from an older version of Sleep, b/c that's not what Sleep does now, and I can't see them giving such a confusing example otherwise.) Now, Sleep does not have aftereffects that apply after you save against the initial effect, it has effects that apply after you FAIL the initial check.

Aftereffect is more precisely defined in the MM:
"Aftereffect: Some monster powers have aftereffects. An aftereffect happens automatically when a power’s initial effect ends. A creature is only subjected to an aftereffect if it was hit by the power. An aftereffect doesn’t trigger on a missed attack unless otherwise noted."

So, that's not Sleep.

I'm actually having a hard time finding powers or monster abilities that have aftereffects called out. So far all I've noticed are the poisons from the DMG, and the young white dragon in the back of the DMG.

***
TL;DR

In (my) conclusion: make two separate and independent saves vs Slow and KO.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Icy Terrain an encounter spell can actually do most of what people claim sleep does... with damage too.

Its knocks a few off (prone in this case) and slows a large group in this case with difficult terrain. Only the area is smaller.

Sleep doesn't work well close to the group since they still get 1 rnd to attack. If you cast it far away... those foes that fall asleep won't get Coup d'Graced.

 

[Plane Sailing]

In (my) conclusion: make two separate and independent saves vs Slow and KO.

I don't see how you get to this conclusion.

Unless Sleep has an 'aftereffect' entry, saving against the sleep clears everything. It doesn't have an 'aftereffect' entry, QED.

Regards

 

[Boarstorm]

No, it doesn't have an aftereffect entry, but neither does it say that acquiring the second condition removes the first condition, and since all conditions are rolled for separately...