Help my Kobolds spank my players

Solid suggestions, but I don't really understand what you mean by the quoted part.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_rNAvMb5p4&feature=related]teeter totter fail - YouTube[/ame]


Something along the lines of this, but more dangerous/humorous, including small propelled items that could cause some problems for the PCs. :)


I think it's gonna be all kobolds, all the time.

This is the worst gentlemen's club flyer in all of Sigil.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

EDIT: Was looking through the Netbook of Traps and forgot this Koboldy gem:

Name: Familiar Faces
Creator: Unknown, collected by grms[MENTION=85058]Mari[/MENTION]st.bitnet
Game system: AD&D
Location type: Door
Context: 20' x 20' room, with 4 kobolds (originally).
Trigger type: magical
Trigger: Any party member touches door to enter room.
Effect type: magical
Effect: A bright flash of light blinds the players and when their vision
clears each player is in a room with many kobolds. Each player in the
party is teleported to a different location in the room and an illusion
spell is cast on each party member. Each party member sees the other
members of his party as kobolds but none of his/her companions are
anywhere in sight. Plus the extra four kobolds of course.

May be a little too high-magic, but still hilarious.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Probably not. You have to resign yourself to the fact that a bunch of minions aren't a force to be reckoned with.

I beg to differ. But I think we're having a playstyle disconnect here and I think you're reading too much into my hyperbolic statement about shivering. I get the feeling that you think being nasty is in itself unfair and I feel that you are assuming motives that aren't there.

I don't want to beat them, I want to challenge them. And just throwing bigger monster at them is dull for everyone.


If you do that much, you'll have done your job well because your players won't be bored which is the entirely too probable result of forcing your players to face large numbers of minions and the all too likely dull repitition that that involves.

Ah, but that's the charm, isn't it? It's not gonna be waves of minions. The trick is to outsmart the kobolds' tactics.


I'd much rather see a fellow DM sweating not how he can beat the players, but how he can manage to keep them from being bored.

Exactly!


Ok, that spiel out of the way, what are your terrain motifs? I see you are in iceland IRL, and that the PC's have just left a volcano/geothermal region in game? Do you want to stick with the vulcan themes, or is a more sylvan or pastoral setting preferred?

Depends on what I can think of/what people suggest. The campaign is set in a overall barren and rocky/mossy terrain, but the southern regions (where I located WPM) are more lush, if a bit swampy.
 

I beg to differ. But I think we're having a playstyle disconnect here and I think you're reading too much into my hyperbolic statement about shivering. I get the feeling that you think being nasty is in itself unfair and I feel that you are assuming motives that aren't there.

I have no problem with being nasty. I'm on record as stating that I think 'Tomb of Horrors' is a fair (perhaps even preeminently fair) dungeon. Nasty doesn't bother me. But the point is that kobold minions aren't nasty and you can't make them nasty. Any attempt to explain how nasty they are will only emphasize the limited role they actually play in the nastiness. The real nastiness you are going to through at the party is going to be the truly evil terrain that you force the party to fight in. The kobolds themselves aren't capable of doing much of anything, which is one of the reasons I reject the myth of 'Tucker's Kobolds'.

Ah, but that's the charm, isn't it? It's not gonna be waves of minions. The trick is to outsmart the kobolds' tactics.

If the kobold's tactics can be 'outsmarted', then its just going to highlight how worthless of a foe the kobold is. Again, the 'Tucker's Kobold' of myth depend heavily on the DM ruling in the NPC's favor solely because they are NPC's.

The only way this works without DM 'cheating' is to take the kobolds out of the equation. Basically, you have to deny line of sight on the kobolds at all times, and never attempt direct attacks on the PC's. Arrow slits are for suckers, because the PC's will still be about 5-10 times more likely to hit a kobold on the other side of an arrow slit than the kobold will be to hit them. If you actually were to have enough arrow slits hiding kobold archers to be a relevant threat, you'd be bored and so would the players.

There is no trick to it; there is no cleverness on the kobold's part. The kobold's aren't 'smart'. Smart kobolds probably wouldn't even fight PC's - they'd offer them tribute, beg to be left alone, and promptly deliver to the PC's whatever gizmo that the PC's were seeking in their lair. You can't even give enough tactical advantage to kobolds to make them worth anything. All kobolds are in this case is trap triggers with the in game flavor of being sentient. Smart implies adaptability, but in a class/level based game kobolds don't have enough game resources to be adaptable even if you invest all your personnel intelligence in them. Instead, you are merely designing a death trap on behalf of the kobolds and then allowing them to be somewhat participatory in its workings. The force to be reckoned with is the lair. That's the real foe. The kobolds are worthless even as cannon fodder.

So, the basic situation is this. There is an oblong dome shaped hill in the moors roughly 12 miles across and about 1800' of elevation change. The dome itself is composed of three layers of stone, an upper layer of sandstone or other hard semi-permable rock, a middle layer of limestone, and a lower layer of mixed metamorphic rock rich in layers of ancient coal and siderite. Whereever the upper stone layer has cracked, it leaks water into the lime stone layer, with the result that the limestone layer has eroded into sloping labyrinth with passage ways that follow the pattern of the cracks above. These passages are on average triangular with a base about 5' across and an apex about 20' high. However, more irregular passages can be found where leaking water joins to form small stream beds, which erode passages into high meandering retangular forms, often with upper (hidden shelfs. Numerous entrances to the various - small and large - cave systems can be found along the perimeter of the hill. The largest of these complexes - one with several miles of passage way - is inhabited by a comparitively prosperous large and self-sufficient community of relatively advanced kobolds.

These kobolds live deep in the hill, and prosper because they are able to work the rich veins of coal and iron ore safely. With this they are able to manufacture reasonably good steel for their own use, as well as trading the surplus to a nomadic band of hill giants - too lazy and large to work the mines - for things that they cannot easily manufacture themselves. They eat game that they can hunt among the bogs of the surrounding moor, as well as cave crickets that live on the fungus farms the kobolds maintain in the abandoned portions of their mines, and have plentiful natural water from the springs that form where rain water perculates down to their depths. The industrous kobolds have even damned the small streams that result, to form a large underground pond in the heart of their realm, and with this power a waterwheel which turns the trip hammers that they use to pound their ore and hammer their steel. For this reason, those on the surface of the hill report that they can hear a faint tapping or banging coming from within, and for this reason the hill is known as 'The Ringing Tor'.

Ok, so that's the set up. I've provided my band of kobolds with the resources they need to kill or at least harass PC's and withstand a seige. We have a fortress which will be difficult to either surround or assault, and abundant replinishable natural resources. Plus we have an outside supply chain which, even if we need to depend on it, will be dangerous for the players to disrupt directly. Kobolds may be well below the PC's level, but the band of 20 hill giants that they trade with is not. Inside their fortress we've got terrain that let's us set up the indirect warfare we wish to perform and which I'll now describe.

In addition to mining the veins of ore, the kobolds have spent the last few centuries fortifying their home. To do this, they've connected the natural cave passages with a network of their own tunnels worked patiently into the soft limestone. These tunnels are all more than 15' off the floor of the natural passages, and connect to concealed 'balonies' and 'murder holes' worked in the upper walls and ceilings. The kobolds defensive strategy is as simple and cowardly as they are. Rather than worry about fighting, or shooting bows, or any thing of that sort, the kobolds simply take as large of a rock as they can lift or push, and throw it into the natural passage way below and hope for the best. If they crush a foes skull, then well done. Otherwise, they just move on and keep trying. In places with ceilings high enough that torch light does not easily reach, they've prepared the defenses by storing several hundred pounds of rock in hammocks suspended from the roof, which can be released to dump their contents by simply yanking a knot or tipping them with a long wooden hook.

The defensive tunnels are never more than 4' high and 4' wide, and in many places they are a good deal smaller. Narrow places - usually no more than 1' wide and 2' high, but often less, are blocked with simple stone portuculis consisting essentially of a 100lb block with a hole bored into it, a rope on a pulley for lifiting it, and a stone peg which can be jammed into the rock to prevent it from being lifted. In this way, they can isolate portions of the defensive tunnels that get invaded, and move deeper into complex. In response to a persistant effort, they'll build a coal fire in a tunnel and fill it with smoke, and if that fails, they'll use their knowledge of mining to collapse the tunnels surrounding the penetrated area.

While most of the caves are in basically their natural state, any of those that lead to their village directly are blocked up with barriers of stone and concrete. Hidden 'gate houses' consisting of large baskets which can be lowered from trapdoors in the roof allow access to the defensive level itself, and in turn, several layers of porticulis protect the village level from access through the defensive tunnels. In several positions, the kobolds have built simple barbicans that control access to the straightest and most useable tunnels in the labyrinth. These consist of thick walled cylinders of stone and concrete which enclose a mangonel, oriented so that it can fire through a loophole straight down the passage for up to a hundred yards without really having to be aimed in any fashion.

Sentries are positioned in various places through out the caves, hiding in the darkness and peering through a peephole into the natural passage below. These never dare attack by themselves, but instead upon seeing the tell tale signs of fire light or hearing voices other than the hiss of kobolds will scurry back to fetch their fellows. Thereafter, they will endeavor to track the movements of invaders by sound and light, without risking direct observation (and the resulting spot check it would give to invaders!).

As a last resort against an determined invader, the kobolds will open spill ways within their village, which in turn will send a portion of their resivore racing down the passage of their choosing in a wall of water that will hopefully batter and drown any one that has penetrated too deeply into the hill.

The village itself contains their work shops, furnaces, armories, hatcheries, farms, store houses, mills, temple, dungeons, living chambers and entrances to the mines. These are all made to kobold scale and defended in a manner similar to the outer defenses. Political power is shared between a priesthood of adepts and clerics that have the final say on all matters of peace, and who pass on the lore of the gods in mining and crafts to the tribe, and a war lord who makes the decisions concerning war. The kobolds are all closely related and so long as it doesn't involve acts of bravery, will do their best to protect and care for each other, ferrying any wounded back to the temples and working together to stop up any gaps in the defenses.
 

The real nastiness you are going to through at the party is going to be the truly evil terrain that you force the party to fight in.

[...]

The kobolds themselves aren't capable of doing much of anything, which is one of the reasons I reject the myth of 'Tucker's Kobolds'.

[...]

If the kobold's tactics can be 'outsmarted', then its just going to highlight how worthless of a foe the kobold is.

[...]

Again, the 'Tucker's Kobold' of myth depend heavily on the DM ruling in the NPC's favor solely because they are NPC's.

[...]

All kobolds are in this case is trap triggers with the in game flavor of being sentient. Smart implies adaptability, but in a class/level based game kobolds don't have enough game resources to be adaptable even if you invest all your personnel intelligence in them. Instead, you are merely designing a death trap on behalf of the kobolds and then allowing them to be somewhat participatory in its workings. The force to be reckoned with is the lair. That's the real foe. The kobolds are worthless even as cannon fodder.

Here we get back to that disconnect.

Am I safe to assume that the whole kobolds as clever, magicky, sadistic masters of trapmaking thing originated with Tucker's Kobolds? I had never heard of Tucker's Kobolds before this thread, but I've read it now. And yeah, it does sound like Tucker was a bit too in love with his creations.

And you say (if I'm understanding you correctly): If you remove Tucker from the Kobolds, they're not worth much in a fight as they're written. So to make them worth a damn, you'd have to either boost their stats (and thus defeating the point) or cheat.

Which is true. But it doesn't matter, because the traps, tactics, cruelty, etc are the point. That a bunch of low-level reptiles on home ground can beat you, thanks to tactics and forethought, just like a PC can beat a higher level foe with the same. Because Kobolds are more than just stats. They're sentient creatures that created this death trap of a home. That's the point. Tucker is the point!

Anyway, CA and Aid Another goes a long way.
 
Last edited:

That's why I posted the trap I did, and not, say a magical puzzle or a huge feat of engineering.

Low-tech, low-cost, high-design (of traps). That's kobolds.
 

Which is true. But it doesn't matter, because the traps, tactics, cruelty, etc are the point. That a bunch of low-level reptiles on home ground can beat you, thanks to tactics and forethought...

That's just the thing; they really can't. These are creatures of average intelligence and crude trap making, craft, and mining skills (+2 bonus according to 3rd edition, for example). Sure, they can settle and prepare a defensible position, as I've briefly begun to outline above, but the above isn't really a good defense against PC's above 3rd or 4th level in either 1st or 3rd edition. By 6th level, the above defenses are getting a bit iffy.

If you hold the kobolds to the same standards you would hold the players, you'll realize that they lack the wealth and skills to do much more than about CR 3 traps. Anything more elaborate than a simple covered spiked pit trap is really beyond them. There is a reason that 3e capped out ordinary traps at CR 10; it's not that its impossible to design traps that are more than CR 10, but its that traps have to be really good to threaten players if the DM isn't making them work by fiat.

The kobolds can rely on stealth, but unless like Tucker's kobolds they all move silently and hide like 15th level thieves, the PC's will be more stealthy and more alert. They'll eventually catch on and start out ambushing thier tormentors unless you just rule that kobolds are teleporting in from the kobold dream world and are impossible to ambush. At some point CR 3 traps with 20 search DC's and CR 1/4 creatures just stop being dangerous even in combination. The math stops working; it takes to much effort to injure a PC, the PC can recover too quickly, and it takes too little effort for the PC to kill the kobold.

See Tucker's Kobolds 'intelligence' is really nothing of the sort. It's Tucker using his own omniscence as the DM to retroactively 'prepare' for the PC's, and his own omnipotence as the DM to by fiat rule in the kobolds favor. I encourage you to read Skip's 'Axe of the Dwarven Lords' (a good read in any event) to see documentation of how 'Tucker's Kobolds' really work. It's going to be very hard for anyone to escape from that designing this sort of scenario. I just now threw out some stats for this excercise because I realized that I was making some things work significantly more effectively than standard traps and attacks of the type and I'm the one making this argument. It's hard as a DM to be fair in this case because your motives are less than pure; your gamist desire to make a challenge is at war with the implied simulationist requirements that you threaten the players with 'merely kobolds'.

Your players are going to have no problem if you try to beat them with flanking and aid other. Melee is a bad idea. Players just wade through the big masses of kobolds it takes to do that, and the narrow confines of the dungeon just work against the kobolds. You'd be better off having the whole tribe of 400 meet the PC's on the open Moor, and simply rolling 400 ranged attacks each round. You'll be losing them 50-60 to an encounter if you go to melee. Do the math; it doesn't work. Heck, even kobolds behind arrow slits are marginal at 6th level.

You want cruelty and mean though? Have the kobolds seal off a smallish area with large blocks, start shoveling coal in through holes in the ceiling until they've got a ton or three in there (say 100 cubic feet), then have them throw in a few bottles of burning oil and then shovel some more coal. Low level PC's don't have the resources to tunnel quickly, so you'll have a death trap. The kobolds can just arrange to have the fire last longer than the PC's can, eventually turning the place into an oven (death comes more quickly if the PC's don't arrange to pile the coal up to one side and use 'create water' to get it wet, but yeah, that's PC's for you).

I'd suggest finding a copy of Dungeon #18 and reading Tallow's Deep for a primer on this sort of design. It don't suggest you copy it in all cases, but it's a good introduction and it does at least try to make the encounters varied and is creative.

As for the PC's beating higher level foes, that isn't (usually) the result of intelligence and planning. That's usually the result of usually having (as a party) more hit points, more actions per turn, and more abilities than any single foe that they face. A PC party is the ultimate 'solo monster'.
 
Last edited:

To drop a real world example in here of how effective simple traps can be against obviously better trained and better equipped opponent - Vietnam.

The Viet Cong were poorly trained, ill-equipped and using roughly stone-age trap technology. However, on their turf they time and time again bloodied first the French and then the US forces arrayed against them.

Kobolds should be a similar foe. Large numbers, always moving, hiding and striking from afar before withdrawing and always making the enemy come to them. Pit traps, footfalls, poison and the like will injure and slow the party, causing them to use resources that they would otherwise keep in reserve. Indian Jones style huge rocks and slides are just silly. Murderholes and arrowloops hidden in an adjacent hallway are brilliant. Also, kobolds don't need 10 foot ceilings anyone over 5 feet is going to have a case of the "bends" negotiating their tiny corridors.

Another way to think of it is, a low level party taking on a hill giant. they have to be sly to pull it off, but can do so with some skill - in this scenario the party are the hill giants. Make your kobolds cagey, they may be illiterate and a little backward, but they are very wise in the ways of survival.
Being at the bottom of the monster food chain means years of adaption and overcoming. :)

Also, who knows, maybe they have a Troll or two on retainer for just such an emergency. :devil:
 

To drop a real world example in here of how effective simple traps can be against obviously better trained and better equipped opponent - Vietnam.

The Viet Cong were poorly trained, ill-equipped and using roughly stone-age trap technology. However, on their turf they time and time again bloodied first the French and then the US forces arrayed against them.

This is historically inaccurate on more levels than I wish to count, and do to board rules I'm unable to address the problem.

As for arrow loops, the spot DC on kobold hiding behind an arrow loop is about 22, and the effective AC is about a 23. This is much better than the kobold facing the PC's one on one in the open, but typically still significantly favors the PC's. This is particularly true because typically, arrow slits and murder holes act as effective choke points that limit how many kobolds are actually able to attack the PC's at one time - effectively negating the advantage that they might have in numbers. PC archers will still hit a 23 AC nearly half the time, while the kobolds will still probably need a 20 to hit. You want to run the numbers on how many kobolds behind arrow slits will die before the PC's need to retreat if the kobolds continiously man 4 arrow slits? The PC's are more likely to run out of arrows than hit points.

Again, arrow loops - unless there are a lot of them overlooking a large room so that many kobolds can fire at once - are such an inferior tactic that you are better off massing the whole tribe as distributed force of skirmishers on an open plain just so you can roll the 20 or so 20's per round. And if there are a lot of them overlooking a room, the PC's will probably not be surprised (because at least one of the kobolds will have rolled a 1' on his hide check, and gives the rest of the force away) and will simply retreat and/or employ some counter measure. In 4th edition, the situation is - if anything - even worse, because the 4e rules for healing surges and long rests make it just about impossible for the kobolds to win a war of attrition - which is essentially the tactic you are suggesting.
 

This is historically inaccurate on more levels than I wish to count, and do to board rules I'm unable to address the problem.

As for arrow loops, the spot DC on kobold hiding behind an arrow loop is about 22, and the effective AC is about a 23. This is much better than the kobold facing the PC's one on one in the open, but typically still significantly favors the PC's. This is particularly true because typically, arrow slits and murder holes act as effective choke points that limit how many kobolds are actually able to attack the PC's at one time - effectively negating the advantage that they might have in numbers. PC archers will still hit a 23 AC nearly half the time, while the kobolds will still probably need a 20 to hit. You want to run the numbers on how many kobolds behind arrow slits will die before the PC's need to retreat if the kobolds continiously man 4 arrow slits? The PC's are more likely to run out of arrows than hit points.

Again, arrow loops - unless there are a lot of them overlooking a large room so that many kobolds can fire at once - are such an inferior tactic that you are better off massing the whole tribe as distributed force of skirmishers on an open plain just so you can roll the 20 or so 20's per round. And if there are a lot of them overlooking a room, the PC's will probably not be surprised (because at least one of the kobolds will have rolled a 1' on his hide check, and gives the rest of the force away) and will simply retreat and/or employ some counter measure. In 4th edition, the situation is - if anything - even worse, because the 4e rules for healing surges and long rests make it just about impossible for the kobolds to win a war of attrition - which is essentially the tactic you are suggesting.

And see for me those numbers just don't jive (not saying you are wrong, just a difference of opinion.) I'm suggesting a string of said loops and muderholes, constant drubbing by hit and fade (using surprise or initiative) should be enough to grind them down using them not as choke points but access points - and if the party is in kobold country, I would find it hard to believe there would be a safe place to hole up for the night unless the party is carrying some sort of magical shelter. Scattered bow attacks on the camp at say 45 minute intervals (on an irregular clock) should keep the party awake just long enough to slowly drain their supplies. The kobolds superior numbers mean their units get sleep while the party is harried into defeat. But that's just a tactical perspective. (Though I agree that 4e really skews this with it's party favored rest rules).
 

I came into this thread expecting it to be about "Help, my kobolds spank my players."

I thought it was going to be about how your players can't even defeat kobolds. I completely read that wrong.
 

Remove ads

Top