Help Needed - Perception Puzzles.

[Scud.NZ]

I'm having a little trouble getting to grips with the Perception skill.

Imagine, if you will, a group of PC's walking along on a nice clear day. Maybe they will spot the ogre (200m away) in the field chewing on the arm...just the arm, mind you, combat's over...the arm of a peasant. The PC's are not actively looking out for danger as they are in civilized lands. Here is how I think I should run the start of this encounter.

The PC's are not actively looking out for danger, so I use Passive Perception. Is this right?
The Ogre is not actively trying to hide, so rather than use an opposed check I need to find a Perception DC. How do I calculate it?

On p.187 PHB I am given (very) little guidance on how to do this. Nothing in the rules that I have seen allows me to take into account either the large distance (about 120 squares) or the large size of the Ogre.

I recognize that the reason behind this is that D&D is now effectively a set of tabletop skirmish rules (the combat system is more fun to play as a result, IMO) and hence encounters "normally" happen at 5 - 20 squares, but 4Ed does seem to lack much of the detail present in earlier editions in other areas of the game.

As far as this encounter, and the rules as I understand them, goes, I would judge that my ogre is behaving "normally" eating his peasant arm. If I consider Passive Listening I would pick DC10 (normal conversation), and take the +2 modifier for being more than 10 squares away, for a total of 12. The ogre would be heard by over half of my 1st level party.

It doesn't appear to matter if the ogre is 11 squares or 110 squares away.
It doesn't appear to matter that the ogre is like 8-9 feet tall. It could just as easily be a (small) giant rat gnawing on the arm. No difference in the rules.

Granted the Spot Perception DC's are DC10 for Barely Hidden, and DC25 for Well Hidden, so I could choose a DC (based on size), but there is no guidance.

What if there were more than one monster? This would make it even easier to hear or spot. How about when the party have reached paragon tier? With ability increases and +5 for their level, they are going to be super-aware of their surroundings.

By my reckoning the ogre would automatically spot/hear the PC's as well (Normal Conversation, More than 10 squares away = DC12), with his Perception of +4. It seems kinda stale, both sides automatically seeing the other, no chance of one side getting the drop on the other. Any solution to this?, rather than DM's decree "You see the ogre, but it does not see you."

Can anyone please provide some advice about how I could take distance and creature size into account, and give the party a chance to get the drop on the ogre?

The reason I need this is that I want to set up a patrol-type adventure, where some of the encounters can be random, and sometimes one side sees the other first. Thanks in advance for any help given.

 

[kouk]

The second paragraph of Perception says "This skill is used against another creature’s Stealth check or against a DC set by the DM. In most situations, the DM uses your passive Perception check result to determine if you notice a clue or an imminent danger."

You are free to call for a Perception check when something changes though, or just whenever you want to.

The DM has to decide what a fair DC would be for any given situation, there are too many variables to ever account for.

You might consider it to be a +2 for each 10 squares away. I think that may be what was meant. However, a creature standing in an open, flat field is not hard to find no matter how far away they are really. Under Vision and Light (PH 262) it says, "You automatically see the obvious, but you use the Perception skill to try to see the hidden." As DM you decide whether something is obvious or somewhat hidden, either because it is hiding or because there are things in the way.

200m away is approximately 650 feet, or 130 squares. You can simply say there is no chance of hearing an ogre chewing on something from that distance, because there probably isn't. You might hear an Ogre shouting or talking if there is no wind though. You could probably see it fairly easily though.

Just use your judgment as to how hard or easy something would be. The rules given are just guidelines. At that distance, assuming not entirely flat terrain, I would think an easy DC of about 10-15 would be sufficient (though I don't know the area you envision). That would mean Passive perception should see it, but then the Ogre is a big fellow who you say isn't taking any care to avoid notice. On the same token, if the PCs aren't taking special care, they together are about the size of two ogres, and might be even louder.

I suspect offering a Perception at a greater distance if possible would be better. Maybe allowing or calling for a (DC 20) Perception check at 1,000 feet. That would let keen-eyed PCs notice the Ogre before it has a chance to notice them.

 

[Larry Hunsaker]

I would just have the PCs all roll a Perception check, take the highest result as being the level of awareness of the party. Then have the ogre (all of the monsters if more than 1) roll a Perception check and count that (or the highest if more than one) as the monster level of awareness. Compare the two and the highest one gets to notice the other first, before they notice them. So if the PCs win this opposed Perception check, they notice the ogre first, before he sees them.

Now how far away do they see the ogre, this is not as important, you can make this call, 50 squares, 100, 500, whatever you think works best, the most important fact is that the PCs, in this example, notice the ogre before themselves being noticed by the ogre. Then they get to decide what to do. Sneak up on it and get as close as possible until it sees them, get their surprise round on it, and then start combat from there. Or perhaps sneak to the long range of the archers, open fire, and then start combat from there, etc. This puts the PCs in control either way. If the ogre wins, he then can quickly hide and hope to ambush the PCs when they pass by. In either case, you solved the problem of who has the advantage, and then you change the situation to one of Perception vs. Stealth of the hiding side, which the rules should let you handle from there.

 

[Scud.NZ]

You are free to call for a Perception check when something changes though, or just whenever you want to.

This is partly what's bugging me. In previous editions things have seemed clearer.

The issue of a "fair" DC is also a problem. If I check against Passive Perception, the PC's have no role to play. It's as simple as if their PP is less than the DC I decide upon they don't see it. Effectively the DM gets to decide. Now, I'll grant you that kind of thing has its place, to move a specific story line along (perhaps the peasant had an important message in his pocket), but I, like many others, like the occasional "random monster". It gives the PC's another choice to make (Hide, Fight, Run Away) and I think that is a good thing.

"+2 for each ten squares"? Possibly, but I haven't seen any hint of that being confirmed anywhere. I shall have to trawl the threads. Plus 10 squares is only 50ft...hmmm

Larry: "I would just have the PCs all roll a Perception check, take the highest result as being the level of awareness of the party".

I'm really tempted to use this. Even Rogues and Rangers can have off-days.
Turning it into a rolled check, say at the start of the day or watch, involves the players and gives them a chance against what is otherwise a DM decided outcome. I like it.

"This puts the PCs in control either way." This is exactly what I want.

Which incidentally brings me on to a question about weapon proficiency if anyone can answer it. Weapon Proficiency now offers a bonus, rather than a penalty for using a weapon you do not have proficiency in. Is that right? Could, in the situation Larry has described, my PC's all carry a bow on them (Wizard too), get to long bow range, and pepper the ogre with arrow? Granted the non-proficient are less likely to hit, but the difference is only the +2 weapon proficiency and perhaps a couple of points of DEX bonus. They could get lucky [And the Wizard can't use magic missile till range 20 anyhow].

"In either case, you solved the problem of who has the advantage, and then you change the situation to one of Perception vs. Stealth of the hiding side, which the rules should let you handle from there."

Yup! That's exactly what I wanted. Thanks, both of you!

 

[kouk]

The opposed check makes sense and is quick, but you still have the issue of arbitrarily deciding something as the DM; in that case the distance the encounter starts. It does however, basically eliminate the possibility that both sides could be surprised at once, as even a tie would represent seeing each other at the same time at some distance.

A party would be free to all have longbows and still have a chance of hitting with them, yes. However, the times when there would be that kind of opportunity probably don't really outweigh the hassle of carrying a bow and keeping track of arrows, nor would melee characters be too keen on loosening their shields. Lots of character concepts just wouldn't want to carry a bow they can't use well in the first place.

It would probably be more effective for the PCs without the superior range to Ready actions to attack when they are able, assuming the enemy doesn't just run away. If an enemy will run away, it doesn't really matter if everyone is shooting at him, it is unlikely the fight can end in one round when only one or two members are actually proficient and have powers that work with the bow.

Almost always better to close to a comfortable distance for all PCs.

 

[Alaric_Argent]

You could also throw in...

other factors. Say, wind direction and scent? I was recently in a 3.5 undead campaign; our only living party member had lycanthropy, and a racial scent "feat" from something in the werewolf monster template.

What about PC size and the crop/wild vegetation in the field? You don't say what crop and what season when describing the field in which the ogre is enjoying his snack. I once got teased unmercifully for asking about a stretch of prairie, "How tall is the grass?" Despite the laughs my query got (and still gets, years later), it makes a difference if the field is wild prairie (with grass 4-5 ft high) and one of your PCs is a halfling who stands 3'6". That PC might be unable to see anything unless s/he is riding on someone else's shoulders.

Otherwise, I'd say either come up with a ratio to apply the figures from the close-order combat to longer distances, or use the elegant opposed perception checks à la initiative checks described above.

 

[Paul Strack]

I think you are over thinking things. I use Perception checks in one of three ways:

1) Stealth-busting (as per the rules).

2) "Are you Surprised?": Perception checks against a fixed DC to determine who can't act in the Surprise round of an ambush.

3) "Who spots the clue": Perception checks to see who notices a clue first. The highest roll spots the clue. Note that I don't set a DC for this: the best roll always "succeeds". Failing to give out the clue the players need to advance the story just wastes time. I only set a DC if the clue is supplemental information not necessary to advance the plot.

If you have an ogre in a field, the real question is not whether you want the orge to be seen (you must, otherwise why would you bother to stat it out) but how far away are the PCs when they spot him. I make those decisions based on the battle map I want to use and the kind of battle I want the PCs to fight. I don't leave it to chance.

 

[Scud.NZ]

but you still have the issue of arbitrarily deciding something as the DM; in that case the distance the encounter starts

Other editions addressed this issue with a random roll to decide the maximum distance at which a spot check can succeed. I realise this isn't quite the same thing as "how far away is the ogre" but at least it's guidance. 3rd Edition has a whole list of suggested dice sets to roll, for different terrains. In the case of open fields (during winter) it is 4d6x40 feet.

I appreciate a lot of what you are saying in the rest of your post. I'd restate my opinion (preference?) about player choice. Why should all encounters start "on the battlemap"?

If you have an ogre in a field, the real question is not whether you want the orge to be seen (you must, otherwise why would you bother to stat it out) but how far away are the PCs when they spot him. I make those decisions based on the battle map I want to use and the kind of battle I want the PCs to fight. I don't leave it to chance.

And this is essentially where we differ in opinion. I guess a lot of people are perfectly satisfied with the "leave nothing to chance, everything must be relevant" philosophy that a table-top skirmish system like 4ed embraces. At least, that's my opinion. I like the better combat system of 4Ed, don't get me wrong, but I feel there are gaps that the older editions filled better. I guess house rules are necessary to combine the best of both. However, I wonder what WotC are going to do when they inevitably get around to making the products for "bigger" battles and the weapons therein. Even Epic Wizards do not seem to have any spell range past 20. Why should all encounters start "on the battlemap"?

other factors. Say, wind direction and scent?

I totally agree. I'd call them circumstance modifiers.

In the case of grass height I'd perhaps factor that into the distance at which I'd start the "Spot" Perception checks, depending on the season. This has been done in some older editions of the game.

A big part of my original question is based around "point of view". The PC's are wandering along, passively looking into the fields around them. The ogre is scoffing on peasant arm. He's distracted, essentially. This would lower his chance of spotting the PC's before they spot him and react, deciding to engage the ogre or not. In other situations it might be the other way round, a goblin scout spots the party without being spotted itself, so dashes off to fetch a squad of warriors to go hunt down the party later in the day.

I accept that I am talking about "random encounters" here, for the most part. Has anyone spotted the term in any of the 4ed products released to date. I haven't. If the "new" philosophy precludes their inclusion in the game, I think that is a loss for players and DM's alike.

 

[Dan'L]

I would just have the PCs all roll a Perception check, take the highest result as being the level of awareness of the party. Then have the ogre (all of the monsters if more than 1) roll a Perception check and count that (or the highest if more than one) as the monster level of awareness. Compare the two and the highest one gets to notice the other first, before they notice them. So if the PCs win this opposed Perception check, they notice the ogre first, before he sees them.

I think I would go one simpler than this. Since neither the party nor the ogre in this scenario are actively searching for signs of trouble, I'd just compare the highest passive perception of the party with the passive perception of the ogre.

-Dan'L

 

[On Puget Sound]

Flat field, no obstacles to vision, no attempts at stealth by either side?

You can make out a dot on the horizon. As you get to within 60 squares or so (an American football field) you can tell that it's an ogre and that it sees you as well, though it seems to be busy with some object. By the time you are in bowshot range (assuming it isn't trying to get away) you can identify it as an ogre, and tell that it is chewing on what might be a haunch of meat or something. You also see what might be a humanoid corpse at its feet.

No perception rolls needed unless something is "non-obvious" because it is hiding, in the dark, small and easy to miss, or otherwise obscured. Surprise should only be possible when something is suddenly revealed within combat range.

1st Edtion began every encounter with a d6 roll, 1 or 2 meant you were surprised no matter how ready, careful or forewarned you were. It didn't improve the game. "OK, we've followed the map to the necromancer's lair. Here's a skull-shaped door with a sign saying "NECROMANCER AT WORK, DO NOT DISTURB." We ready our weapons and bash in the door. 1, 2, 3, GO!.....What do you mean, surprised? We KNEW he was in there...."