Help or advice?D&D group w/players, failure to acknowledge or even know rules... help

[Gottohneaffen]

I apologize if this is in the wrong section,
I couldn't really figure them out but we play 3rd & 4th edition D&D.
I am new and made an account just to get help because
I've read through enworld's forums and they've helped me so I thought maybe I could get help from asking here with an account. I have some problems and would like to know if you can relate or give some advice.

Please bear with me as this is a lengthy message.

I play with a group under 18 and am in high school,
there are two DMs both new, me being one
and another one whos new to D&D.
He's DMed much longer than I but doesn't really do it by the book, I've played D&D for 8 years and have a strong understanding of the rules especially 3rd/3.5 rules
and it extremely irritates me when
people make up dumb rules or don't even know the rules.

We also have a problem of way too many people wanting to play
or players bringing in others without permission like a girlfriend showing up or a random friend who is interested
but knows nothing of D&D or a friend of theirs who played D&D
but really knows nothing of the rules. We got all these dumb ideas like rolling a d20 for your stats which the other DM said ok to when I was a player and he added not to take a stat below 10.

So we all have have attributes like 20, 20, 18, 17, 16, 12, 15.
Then we had a 4th edition game where he disallowed all at-wills and certain class features and allowed rogues to sneak attack with any weapon even greatbows even though the book specifically says
they can only sneak attack or use their powers with a weapon from the light blade, hand crossbow or sling group unless their the ruffian thing from the martial power book that lets them a mace I believe.

I told him the rules and showed him in the book,
even the exact page and wordings even on other rules as well throughout the session but he didn't listen to me and just kept going, no one else really knew the rules and didn't say anything about it.
I asked him about why he prefers 4e and he said because he can make up rules in it and change it, but where in the DMG or anywhere in the history of D&D does it say that?

I guess it's ok to make house-rules if all the group is ok with it and it makes sense or solves a problem but if make up stupid rules or turn the game into something else, it's not really what i love -- D&D. In fact I call it his edition, not 4e or whatever edition we are doing hahah

Probably the craziest session I DMed was with twelve players who all had little to no correct comprehension of the rules, we had a 4th level Barbarian who was a friend of our Druid who wanted to join and his Barbarian buddy didn't even know about Charging or how it worked.

There was too many distractions and disruptions and I said we need to drop some people, they didn't want that to happen because it'd drop the "personality" of the group or lessen the "roleplaying" even though they barely knew how to roleplay except for the other DM. I then suggested maybe we could seperate this into at least two alternating groups to keep everyone in and no one wanted to besides myself and wanted to keep everyone. I want to continue D&D but i don't to kick people out because then they'll dislike me, ignore me at school or be rude and not want to be friends with me anymore.

I understand not all people would do this but in high school, most kids here aren't exactly mature. We kicked out a player for being SO disruptive and rude after getting so many warnings at nearly every session, he even kept peeking at the module I was doing while I was DMing so after that game we kept track of all of his strikes, he got 143 strikes in that one session alone and we made a vote and every one of us present agreed to kick him out and we lost a friend who was a friend but terrible at D&D.

I started doing sessions where we don't tell everyone about it just some people and I politely told them to stop bringing their girlfriends. So far this has been ok, have you ever had this problem and have any advice fellow DMs?

The other problem: the rules being broken or giving me weird suggestions like making a snare trap with just rope near a door so when someone opens the door they get caught. What skill would that use...? I am sure though the opposing check would be reflex but that's not really a bad idea compared to others. I had a NPC join the party as a guide and he was looking for a PC at night in the camp but the PC said he made a hide check to hide his tent in the bushes and plants and told me his hide check which was above 22 and went to sleep in this tent.

The NPC was going to go into the tent and talk to him but he said he hid his tent. So I had the NPC roll search checks and he didn't find his tent because of the high DC and it's low modifier and wouldn't have been able to even if he toke 20. This was important to the plot and to make the NPC not be cheezy but I just went through with it because I didn't want to deal with arguing and he had to go in a few minues so we couldn't do what I wanted anyway.
Should I have allowed that creative suggestion or have disallowed it? I don't want to be a DM who just says NO and ignores the players like the other DM but I feel I should have. Also the PCs kept plotting to kill their guide and wanted to use him as bait for a monster and would laugh about it. Also you would be fatigued sleeping in heavy or medium armor but I found the Barbarian avoided this rule even though I kept reminding hte group. Also the barbarian kept saying he'd take watch and wanted to stay up for like 3 nights straight.

I also had us convert our inflated stats to a pointbuy system so it'd be better but the Barbarian PC was new and jumped in the middle of hte session with high stats. Should I tell him he has to change to point-buy and follow the rules? This is the same barbarian who didn't know anything about charging :x I want the barbarian to either learn or say you're out, I don't know him though and that was the first time I met him.

I could come across as a jerk and idk if he'd be mean at school if I ever see him. Ehh I can't find a new group because no one my age knows the rules or even really knows about D&D and I am tired of playing with newbies who have no idea how to play or make up all these rules.




How should I deal with this and when all the players don't know the rules and a huge number of players and all the issues above?

 

[CherubKid]

Hi Gottohneaffen,

I feel your pain. And I understand your frustration, especially with trying to maintain the integrity of a game you love when noone else takes it as seriously (or understands the rules as well) as you do.

But I would say this: The game (as wonderful as it is) is not worth alienating friendships or insulting newbies over. Try to look at this as a social gathering, and (as much as it hurts) let the rules be secondary. When things get crazy and out of control, let it be silly fun for you, and not something you agonize over.

When players do something creative that doesn't quite fit the rules (which will always happen), try to reward them -- not necessarily with success, but with encouragement. A high DC ability score is often appropriate when someone attempts something outside of their skill set.

If you get the chance, maybe DM a smaller game on the side, even if it's just once every month or two, with a handful of the better players. This can go a long way to satisfy the need for role-playing sanity.

And if you're currently alternating with the other DM, let him have his world and his set of rules, and then have the players use a separate set of PCs for *your* world. This way your realm won't be tied up with his random decisions.

But most of all - enjoy everything - including the rules, but also the friends, the strangers, the snacks, the dragons, the unpredicatbility of the dice, and the treasure that awaits (even if it's not level-appropriate).

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hello Gottohneaffen,

- Firstly, welcome to the boards in a posting capacity, good to have you aboard.

- Secondly, in the situation you have presented I think it better to keep the peace and accept that a large high school group is going to be more focused on the social occasion than specific rules. Work out ways how you can enjoy yourself within this context treating it as "light entertainment" rather than "proper gaming".

- Thirdly, it sounds like you have made some tentative steps to running a more serious group which normally I would encourage but in this situation, I can imagine the difficulty of only inviting certain members of your high school group. Can you run a game at a local game shop where everyone is invited, but it is expected that any player has their own "Player's Guide" and be making "proper" characters and following the rules? This more formal arrangement outside of school will not actively exclude anyone but it more than likely ensures that those who are turning up are more serious and more in tune with the type of game you are looking for.

- Fourthly, which system are you playing under? If you prefer 3/3.5, have you looked at Paizo's Pathfinder (effectively D&D 3.75) and their modules and adventure paths? In combination with their message boards (and obviously here at EN World), you will find a lot of information how to get player's involved in their products that will garner your player's interests as well as support you in DM/GMing them. I can thoroughly recommend such a path in making the jump from a high school game into a more serious gaming group.

And yeah, welcome once again. Everyone here is really friendly and you'll find more than willing to help.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Hautamaki]

I would echo the other's sentiments. What is most important here is whether or not your players are having fun. If they are having fun proposing wacky rule changes and outlandish character designs, they are making your job as DM easier if anything, because they are not sitting back passively waiting to be entertained, but rather are taking the initiative in helping you create a fun game for everyone. Instead of thinking of players as being responsible to honor the integrity of the rules in order to conform to your idea of what D&D gaming should be, just see yourselves as cooperating in order to create a fun session for everyone, and you, as DM, rather than having the most 'authority' to enforce what you see as 'correct', see yourself merely as the most responsible for ensuring that everyone has a good time. If you don't want to accept this responsibility, perhaps DMing isn't really your thing even though you may have the most knowledge of the rules...


However, all that said, I agree with your general sentiment that the rules are there for a reason. Unfortunately, if your players aren't ready to see what the reason is, you have to be a pretty strong personality in order to make them conform to your vision against their will or inclination. I'd say the best thing you can do is let them do what they want for a while until they naturally get bored. The same thing happened in my high school group; we took turns DMing and none of us wanted to say no and all of us wanted to be the 'coolest' DM, and so by the third adventure our characters were about 6th level with a fistful of wishing rings and a horde of dragon mounts in our thrall. And then the game died. We found out that that wasn't what made D&D fun; rather what was most fun was when we were struggling to survive with limited resources, trying to find creative solutions to untenable challenges. Your players, with time, will probably come to that same conclusion independently. Until then, let them have their fun. Were you so different when you were a newbie?

 

[kitsune9]

Gotto,

A probably more pertinent question is how you'll deal with the GM who doesn't play the rules, makes up rulings by whim, and players who are ignorant of the game itself.

There are several approaches to this:

1. Tolerate it. This option is available if you feel that despite the lack of rules, you're having fun and it's better than nothing. As you've stated, high school kids aren't exactly the most mature, so probably play to just to be hanging out.

2. Chat with the DM about your expectations. Have a one-on-one with the DM. Indicate that you'd like to play more by the rules and no more rolling 1d20 for stats stuff. If you two can't seem to come to some sort of agreement, then you're back to either picking #1 or going with #3.

3. I'm out of here. The game isn't your cup of tea, it's time to move on and find another group. When you go about advertising for your new group, make it known what your expectations are from the beginning so that other players and GM will know more about you upfront.

4. I'm the GM now. If you want a game with the rules, get back to handling the GM duties. Pick the players you think who are the most in-line with the game you want to run and go with them, ditch the rest.