Help replace "Max Dex Bonus"

Felnar

First Post
My friend is looking for variant max dex rules. I thought it deserved its own thread.
General Barron said:
Instead of having a "max-dex bonus" for armor, there would be a "dexterity penalty". This would reduce your effective dexterity by said number for anything related to agility (AC, saving throws, certain skills; but not missle attacks, weapon finess, etc). If this ends up giving you a dex penalty, then you do NOT take that penalty to your AC. (Dex penalties to AC don't make too much sense anyways, to me. So if you are flat-footed and have dex penalties, you get better AC???)

I'm not sure about the exact dex penalties yet, but I'm thinking something like -1 for studded leather, up to -3 or -4 for plate. I'd also throw in similar penalties for shields, such as -1 for small, -2 for large and -3 for tower, or possibly -0/-1/-2 respectively. Since these dex penalties would double-up on the armor check penalties to some degree, I might also reduce that penalty by 1 for every -2 to dex the armor gives.

Encumberance would have to do the same thing: give a dex penalty instead of a max dex bonus.

The reason behind this? Well, it doesn't make much sense to me that someone with 12 dex wearing full plate would dodge blows just as well as someone with 18 dex (or 25 or 40). Game-mechanics-wise, it then makes all armors just a sliding scale: either low AC bonus, but low dex penalty, or high AC bonus, and high dex penalty. Deciding which armor to choose is just a matter of deciding how much dex you are willing to sacrifice.

With this system, an 'armor specialization' feat could then decrease the dex-penalty for that type of armor, for one thing. I also like the 2nd ed rule where it halved the encumberence of the armor, although with the movement restrictions, it kind of doesn't make a difference, since you are still restricted. Of course, doing it the other way around (reducing armor move penalties) also doesn't make a difference, since the weight of the armor is almost always going to bump a character into medium encumberance.
and here's my addition...
Felnar said:
Currently, the unencumbered fighter has a move of 20ft while wearing a breastplate, but if he takes it off and carries it, his move is 30ft. He's not encumbered, why is he slowed?
What if armor had an "encumbrance" rating which gave it dex penalties, but the penalties were partially reduced by high strength. This would be more like 2nd ed way only encumbrance slowed you down, and high strength kept you from being encumbered. You could have worn armor be more encumbering than just its weight tho (similar to wearing ankle-weights), say 10-20% more?

has anyone made something like this before? or have any ideas for it?
or perhaps reason why "max dex bonus" is better and should stay?
- Felnar (and General Barron)
 

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The only thing we ever did with this was to say that +X armor had a Max Dex bonus of +X as well. It made armor a bit more high powered for high dex characters. But everybody was happy.
 


here's an idea to get this thread moving

armors dont directly reduce your movement.
instead, use table 9-2 "Carrying Loads" in the PHB, page 162
remove the "max dex" column, and replace it with:
Medium Encumbrance: -2 dex (more?)
Heavy Encumbrance: -6 dex (more?)
this dex penalty doesnt effect skill checks (the armor check penalty already does)

note that heavy encumbrance isn't overly common,
14 strength has medium encumbrance all the way to 116lbs
18 strength has medium encumbrance all the way to 200lbs

i'm not so sure about this version,
what do you think?
- Felnar
 
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What's really important isn't so much the theoretical problems with the system as it is what the system encourages.

The purpose of the current armor system is to encourage those with high Dexterity to wear light or no armor. This produces a world in which assumptions we'd like to hold tend to hold, without any individual losing choice (you could still wear ultra-heavy armor with high Dex if you want).

This system would encourage those with high Dex to wear heavy armor, since (ceteris paribus) their armor class will increase. (That is, unless you penalize Dexterity so much that no one wears heavy armor, but that's it's own situation.) You will likewise discourage arhcers and such from wearing heavier armors.

Discouraging archers from heavier armors isn't a bad thing, but encouraging other high-Dex characters (like rogues) to wear heavy armor isn't good, IMO. I guess it all depends on your tolerance for these sorts of things and your relative preferences.



Personally, I think that heavy armor should act as a damping factor on Dex -- a low Dex character would be slightly less dexterous, while a high-Dex character would suffer more. This would seem to be a better path overall, except for its inherent increase in complexity.
 


magic_gathering2001 said:
DEX penalty =8+enhancement value-the max dexterity bonus of armor

Armor Special Ability

Fluid

Reduce DEX penalty by 2
that seems like a pretty high penalty
maybe i'm reading it wrong
 

armors dont directly reduce your movement.
just use table 9-2 "Carrying Loads" in the PHB, page 162
remove the "max dex" column, and replace it with:
Medium: -2 dex (more?)
Heavy: -6 dex (more?)
this dex penalty doesnt effect skill checks (the armor check penalty already does)
(emphasis mine)
Why have an armor check penalty, then? The Dex penalty affectively does the same thing, doesn't it? If medium armor reduces effective dexterity by -2, then you have innately imposed an armor check penalty of -1 to all dex based skills. Perhaps some medium armors are more restrictive of movement. They might shield more while applying an additional -2 dex penalty (for a total AP of -2). I actually rather like this more than using two systems to deal with the potential negative affects of armor.

One more point to consider: Str based skills are also affected by armor penalty. Granted, the Str bonus counts against this (as suggested in another post, and touched on below). As for Swim - I think the armor penalty also applying to it (once) is enough - especially if you add an additional negative for each degree of encumberment (due to weight). Perhaps light encumberment adds an additional -2, medium -5, and heavy -10?

Hmm, I plan to use an 'armor as DR' varient soon - perhaps permanently, so I'll have to think over this a bit more as the balance will notably be different in such an instance with such a system.

Discouraging archers from heavier armors isn't a bad thing, but encouraging other high-Dex characters (like rogues) to wear heavy armor isn't good, IMO. I guess it all depends on your tolerance for these sorts of things and your relative preferences.
Recall that for a rogue to wear heavy armor effectively he must use a couple feats to gain proficincy. If a PC is willing to blow two feats just to wear heavy armor as a rogue than I don't mind. The penalty to move silently will still get him when he attempts to be stealthful - such as to sneak attack. It will also get him when he attempts to evade traps.

True, the rogue can multiclass to also gain that benefit, but their are other advantages (and disadvantages) with that approach, so it evens out somewhat. A Ftr 2 / Rog 8, for instance, could make use of his ability to wear heavier armor (with the penalties mentioned above), but he is out 12 skill pts, his first rogue special, etc. So either way - feats or multiclassing - the rogue has to pay to make use of heavier armors. This is enough discouragement in my opinion.

What if armor had an "encumbrance" rating which gave it dex penalties, but the penalties were partially reduced by high strength.
Let me see if I understand this correctly.

A character with Str 14, Dex 14 puts on medium armor (above suggested for Dex -2). Their AC is now 13 (armor +2, dex +1). His dex bonus to dex related skills is now only +1, and due to his strength he is not encumbered.

On the other hand, a character with Str 14, Dex 14 puts on a set of full plate (heavy armor, above suggested for dex -6). His AC is now 17 (armor +8, dex -1). His dex bonus to dex related skills is now -1, and due to his strength (+2, vs the -3 to dex) he is lightly(?) encumbered (in terms of movement, not necessarily in terms of weight).

I'm not sure if this works or not. I think we are on to something both interesting and useful, but we need to work on it a bit more. Recall, however, that the penalty to movement is due to the fact that the armor restricts the movement of the joints. It not only slows the movement in general (due to weight), it also limits how far each joint covered by the armor can bend - thus limiting stride, etc. Recall also that half plate, chain shirt, etc are presumed to include other components that - collectively - cover most of the body.
 
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Nyeshet said:
Why have an armor check penalty, then? The Dex penalty affectively does the same thing, doesn't it? If medium armor reduces effective dexterity by -2, then you have innately imposed an armor check penalty of -1 to all dex based skills. Perhaps some medium armors are more restrictive of movement. They might shield more while applying an additional -2 dex penalty (for a total AP of -2). I actually rather like this more than using two systems to deal with the potential negative affects of armor.
I guess i wasnt too clear earlier. The -2 or -6 dex penalty is not from wearing medium/heavy armor. It is from being medium or heavily encumbered. This way a characters strength is factored into how encumbering armor is. 25lbs of hide armor are unlikely to affect the 18 strength warrior, just like 25lbs of chainshirt will definately slow down the 8 strength warrior.

My idea is about relating all movement penalties (speed, dex, etc) to encumbrance. Medium encumbrance would give -2 dex, heavy encumbrance would give -6 dex. I kept armor check penalties, or else a high strength character would only have medium encumbrance in full plate (which would only be a -2 dex penalty).
Another thought i had was the "ankle weight effect". Basically armor being worn would be more encumbering than armor in your pack. Something like 10 or 20% more weight when worn.

Nyeshet said:
I'm not sure if this works or not. I think we are on to something both interesting and useful, but we need to work on it a bit more. Recall, however, that the penalty to movement is due to the fact that the armor restricts the movement of the joints. It not only slows the movement in general (due to weight), it also limits how far each joint covered by the armor can bend - thus limiting stride, etc. Recall also that half plate, chain shirt, etc are presumed to include other components that - collectively - cover most of the body.
if the armor joints limit mobility in your leg movement(speed), should it also limit your arm movement(attack and defense)? This might be getting too complex tho.

This all still needs some work.
Glad to have your mind working on it
- Felnar
 

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