HELP: subdual coup de grace

[Suldulin]

haveing friendly arguement with DM:

can a subdual coup de grace be done period and/or with normal what would be normal damage (druid in black bear form trying to knock out held npc so he can be questioned in this case).

also is crit with subdual damage, normal damage or subdual damage and why? (I try to say subdual he says normal because a hit to the throat would do normal)

The DM is willing willing to listen and read, and says he can be proven wrong, but I'm suffer from a brain lock atm and can't come up with something good enough, help please

his current points if it helps:

"A critical hit is hitting in a vital area."

"That's *not* subdual damage; that's real damage."

"With the -4 option, if you take a sword and hit him with the flat of the blade on his throat, it's not subdual damage he gets."

"With the unarmed strike, it's the same."

"You hit the throat, stomach, whatever.. it's real damage, not subdual."

PS. please keep it friendly and don't bash the player(me) or the DM

 

[Caliber]

The PHB and DMG do not contain any special rules that say an attack that inflicts subdual damage cannot inflict a critical. Basicly, there is no chance you didn't pull your punch enough (as is the case in some super-hero type games.)

I used to think you couldn't crit on a subdual attack, but when I mentioned this rule a few weeks ago, people called for proof. I went to my books and, to my suprise, found none.

As for subdual CDGs, I could see going two ways. I think Option 1 is the strict by the book way of doing it, but I wouldn't mind using Option 2 (ie. they are House Rules.)

Option 1 - Treat it like a normal CDG, but do subdual instead of regular. Target might still die accidently. (Even if you are using a sap, clocking someone in the head us still going to hurt.)

Option 2 - It auto-hits (and possibly auto-crits) but the target doesn't have to make the Fort save.

Either way though, you should be able to auto-hit. A -4 to hit isn't going to matter since you automatically hit when you perform a CDG action.

 

[AuraSeer]

There's no rule that prevents critical hits for subdual damage. Heck, look at the equipment list: the sap does subdual damage, and has a listed crit multiplier of x2.

A critical hit doesn't change the type of damage you do, just the amount of it. If you bash somebody with the pommel of your sword, and you happen to get a really good shot to the temple, you're not going to accidentally knock his head off. Maybe if you critically fumbled you could accidentally do lethal damage, but you'd be more likely to hurt yourself.

The same goes for an unarmed strike. If I'm looking to subdue you, and I roll a crit, that means I kicked you in the crotch or hit the Vulcan pressure point on the back of your neck. It does not mean that I jam my fingers into your throat and crush your windpipe; that kind of thing takes practice, and isn't likely to happen accidentally.

 

[Suldulin]

anyone else?

can a subdual coup de grace be done to KO a held character without killing them? with bear paws?

or can anyone else provide the links to where this was discussed before *not able to afford a donation to get the search function*

 

[hong]

I would say that a subdual attack can be used to make either a lethal CdG, or a subdual one, depending on what the attacker wants. The mechanic is flexible enough to represent both these cases: 1) getting your hands around someone's throat and strangling them (lethal CdG); 2) coshing them on the back of the head (subdual CdG).

 

[Stalker0]

I'd still say they had to make a fort save though, slamming that broad side of your sword to a guy's throat may not take his head off but there's still a good chance of crushing his windpipe and killing him. You may make a house rule like a -2 to the fort save DC or something, but I'd still keep the save.

 

[hong]

I'd still say they had to make a fort save though, slamming that broad side of your sword to a guy's throat may not take his head off but there's still a good chance of crushing his windpipe and killing him.

Fort save to avoid getting knocked out, yes. The CdG is a convenience mechanic, not a tool to simulate reality. Subdual damage from non-environmental causes is never fatal in D&D, and there's no good reason I can see to make an exception in this case.

You may make a house rule like a -2 to the fort save DC or something, but I'd still keep the save.

Your point is...?

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Well, there is always Merciful weapons.

You can always trade in real damage for subdual. If you want to even things out, put the -4 to hit on to the save DC to be knocked unconcious. Or, if there is a crit on any subdual attack, make it the massive damage save, failure means it's treated as normal damage. With a CDG, your save would then be vs. death, on a regular blow it would do normal damage.

A crit is about getting lucky and hitting a vital spot, so it's not hard to see how an accident could happen, and there are rules for accidentally striking a friend. Either way, I would leave rouges' sneak attack as subdual, because thats about constant and controlled finesse.

 

[hong]

Well, there is always Merciful weapons.

You can always trade in real damage for subdual. If you want to even things out, put the -4 to hit on to the save DC to be knocked unconcious. Or, if there is a crit on any subdual attack, make it the massive damage save, failure means it's treated as normal damage. With a CDG, your save would then be vs. death, on a regular blow it would do normal damage.

Why?

A crit is about getting lucky and hitting a vital spot, so it's not hard to see how an accident could happen, and there are rules for accidentally striking a friend. Either way, I would leave rouges' sneak attack as subdual, because thats about constant and controlled finesse.

There are no rules for converting subdual damage taken in a fight into normal. You can knock someone out with your fists, but you can't kill them (unless it's with a CdG after they've been knocked out, and you allow fatal damage).

 

[Stalker0]

Fort save to avoid getting knocked out, yes. The CdG is a convenience mechanic, not a tool to simulate reality. Subdual damage from non-environmental causes is never fatal in D&D, and there's no good reason I can see to make an exception in this case.



Your point is...?

One of the main arguments of this post is that the reason you can CDG with subdual damage is because there's no rule that says you can't. But on the same token, we should assume that the same rules for CDG still apply. If we don't, then we're not talking about CDG we're talking about something totally new. I like the idea of subdual damage knocking a guy out automatically, but I would use a different system then the CDG system, I wouldn't let it be an autohit because you still have to be extra careful, still a -4 to attack, then a fort save to see if its an auto KO.