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[Cergorach]

Personally i'm a bit crunch tired and i think i'm not the only one. While Arcana Evolved is a wonderfull book, but the way the rule changes and the liberal addition of crunch makes the book really an alternative version of D&D and basically a new game. While that might be interesting, it's not eay to start a new game if everyone needs another new book to get started and needs to learn a lot of new rules. But to be honest, AE (and it's predecessor) does create a whole different feel then most games.

So the question becomes, do you want to go the whole nine yards and pull a monte and make an alternative phb? Or do you want to use the D&D rules and make some 'tweaks' to give a certain feel to your setting.

If the only thing you want to do is tweak the rules, then please go easy on the crunch. We don't need another class if it can be achieved with a little tweak of a 'standard' class. Don't make prestige classes just because you can, try to make do with what you've already got and only create new crunch when it's neccessary, that way any changes get noticed more and will 'accentuate' the difference with a 'normal' setting.

 

[Edheldur]

Rich, detailed game world? Cool cultures? Well thought out history with lots of hooks to use it in the present game? Well thought-out cosmology and pantheon?

And that´s precisely why I explicitly said "Both as a player and DM I would prefer...". It's a matter of personal preference, and I just don't like Setting books which offer no new rules material since I run my games and also play in a homebrewed world.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

And that´s precisely why I explicitly said "Both as a player and DM I would prefer...". It's a matter of personal preference, and I just don't like Setting books which offer no new rules material since I run my games and also play in a homebrewed world.

I don't say that they should not have new stuff. Having both is usually best. But the fluff should far outweigh the crunch. If you want crunch only, you probably shouldn't get a campaign setting, anyway. There are enough crunch-heavy books out there, like the Complete series.

 

[Shade]

I'd rather see the "cool bits" upfront as well. I think that is what gives DMs a real idea of where the setting is going. I can trust that the areas will be detailed later in the future, but I'd like to have an idea of how far it deviates from the core before delving too far into a setting.

If it's anything like Denizens of Avadnu, I have no worries that I won't like it.

 

[Andre]

To me your question begs another: what sets your book apart from all the others that have been published? What's the hook? Whatever the it is, you need to develop it thoroughly in the first book. If doing so requires crunch, include it. If it doesn't, or if the crunch distracts from your core theme, leave it until later.

It's really no different than creating a thesis statement for a term paper. Once you know what you're trying to convey, you can easily look at each piece and ask, "Does this reinforce my thesis? Does this distract from my thesis?"

 

[Testament]

Give us what's cool and defines Avadnu as a setting up front. I don't care if its crunch or fluff, I like both. AU/AE and the PGtA are good models to work with, PGtA in particular was full of what I think of as "chew", crunchy fluff.

Given that you intend to extend from the PDF, I'd like to see in the initial release whatever it is that makes Avadnu different, be that the fluff or the crunch. If its going to deviate from the core, then don't hold back in either release. Campaign setting books are all about difference, people who only want to crib elements don't usually buy the whole setting book.

 

[Slife]

Put some of the cool bits in at the end of each section related to them as optional alternate rules. That way, if you had, say, a different magic system, you could put the main changes at the end of the description, and then explain how this represents what is different in the setting (For example, why wearing iron boots gives a -5 on earth spells).

Give reasoning for all major changes; it'll make them seem less strange.

 

[JVisgaitis]

If you (understandably) don't want to get into specifics, can you provide a comparison?

Just so you know, I wasn't ignoring your questions, I just wanted to take the time and devote a whole response to this as it will give people a better idea of what we are doing. I don't mind telling anyone what we are going to have in the Avadnu Primer. I was going to save this for an official Avadnu Primer preview thread, but I'll start it off here.

This is what we currently had slated for the Avadnu Primer and 95% of this is written.

-All New Races. The core races are not part of the Violet Dawn setting (humans withstanding) and we introduce our own races. Ones appearing from Denizens of Avadnu are the mistji, mi'thu, ngakoi, skarren, sulwynarii, and zeidians. A new one introduced in the Primer called the vulnar. We only have one or two subraces (and they are pretty much their own races) so no crazy half this and half that.

-Racial Feats. Each race has a selection of feats to augment existing powers or give them new ones. We also worked really hard on our racial mechanics so each offers something new and exciting. I personally am not a fan of new races with just skill bonuses and attribute modifiers.

-Specific Items and Equipment. We have all new armor, some new mundane pieces of equipment, and racial weapons. We also have some new special materials. You can still use D&D armors if you like, but we do have our own.

-Slight changes to some of the classes ala Iron Kingdoms. Just slight tweaks to special abilities or spell lists. Nothing major, but we do have some cool changes like signature items for wizards and sorcerers, and new bard songs.

-Removing the Cleric as a core class and replacing it with the Devout. More on this is in a preview download of the Devout on our Violet Dawn website. Here's a link.

-Rules for faith based rituals for all classes that allow PCs to gain benefits for devotion to their religions.

-Feats dealing with the Green River, the source of natural magic.

-Rules for incorporating taint into Violet Dawn games.

-Special rules for enviromental conditions in various regions.

 

[scourger]

What I want to know is what would you rather see? A campaign setting developed which introduced more rules sub-systems, base classes, and other tidbits or should we keep it as close to core as possible and leave all of the cool bits for a later product?

Since you solicited opinions, I will give mine. Between these 2 options, I prefer something as close to the core as possible. That is not to say that the product should be all fluff (setting information) and no crunch (new rules). Both are important. But, I prefer a book that emphasizes a few relevant rules adpatations to enable the new setting with the core rules. Since the core game works so well for what it does, it is hard for me to define what the right mix is. So, I'll give you a few examples of my favorites.

First is the Omega World d20 mini-game from the Polyhedron side of Dungeon Magazine issue #94. This game does in about 40 pages what many others cannot do in several hundred pages. It totally captures that feel of the classic Gamma World game in a succinct package that uses the D&D base game. It only adds a handful of new rules, but they really help define the setting. The new rules are based on adapting existing mechanics rather than redefining the rules. Brilliant. You should really pick up this book to see how a game or setting should be done.

Second is Judge Dredd d20. Again, this game presents a few new rules that are adapted to the core d20 game. It really helps illustrate the setting information that is presented. This is, again in my opinion, a game/setting book that gets it right. It presents the cool world of judge Dredd and some new rules that are really new twists on existing mechanics.

I'll also give a nod to two modules. Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia has very concise setting information in the first few chapters. I wouldn't use all of the new rules, but some of it very cool: simple human sub-races, bronze age equipment and a couple of new gods. It makes the adventure more compelling to have the defined setting. Also, The Last Hero in Scandinavia is a great take on viking D&D. It really presents only a couple of new mechanics (horde creatures and experience chips), but they truly define the setting that the module presents.

So, there's my two cents. Good luck with the project.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Personally i'm a bit crunch tired and i think i'm not the only one. So the question becomes, do you want to go the whole nine yards and pull a monte and make an alternative phb?

Arcana Evolved does deviate a lot, but that was the intention. We don't plan on making changes to skills, the base feat selections, or any of the other root changes Monte made. Not that I don't like them, AE is great. However, I do want to keep this in line with core D&D as much as possible and I think we'll end up with a lot of systems tweaked and things added. There won't be a need to relearn the game.