Help with Half-Elf Cleric

[Mokona]

I'm looking for feedback on the following character. Is it worth it to get AC:6 for Speed: 5 or better to keep Speed: 6 with AC: 5? Is there a better Half-Elf power for this build? Since psychic rules aren't out yet the goal here is to create a Path of Light style character and file the serial numbers off the cleric class.

Daily - Avenging Flame
Standard Action - Bastard Sword (two hands)
One creature - +5 vs. AC
Hit: 2d10+3 dmg and ongoing 5 fire dmg (save ends)
If the target attacks it can't attempt a saving throw that turn
Miss: Half dmg and no fire dmg

Encounter - Furious Smash
Standard Action - Bastard Sword
One creature - +5 vs. Fort
Hit: 2 dmg and ally gets +3 to hit and +3 dmg against target for 1 turn

Encounter - Healing Strike
Standard Action - Bastard Sword (two hands)
One creature - +5 vs. AC
Hit: 2d10+3 radiant dmg, target is marked, and you or ally can spend a
healing surge with an additional +1 hit points healed

Encounter - Divine Fortune OR Turn Undead
Divine Fortune
Free Action - Personal
+1 to next attack roll or saving throw

Turn Undead
Standard Action - Close burst 2
Each undead in burst - +1 vs. Will
Hit: 1d10+1 radiant dmg, push 6 squares, and immobilize for 1 turn
Miss: Half dmg, not immobilized or pushed

Encounter (twice) - Healing Word
Minor Action - Close burst 5
You or one ally
Effect: Target can healing surge + 1d6+1 hit points healed

At Will - Righteous Brand
Standard Action - Bastard Sword (two hands)
One creature - +5 vs. AC
Hit: 1d10+3 dmg and one ally gains +2 to hit the target for 1 turn

At Will - Sacred Flame
Standard Action - Ranged 5
One creature - +1 vs. Ref
Hit: 1d6+1 radiant dmg and one ally gains 3 temporary hit points

Str: +2 (14)
Dex: -1 (8)
Con: +3 (16)
Int: +2 (14)
Wis: +1 (12)
Cha: +3 (16)

Hit Points: 28 - 10 healing surges per day (7 hit points each)
AC: 16 - Speed 5 (Chainmail or AC: 15, Spd: 6 with Hide)
Fort: 13
Ref: 12
Will: 15 - Lowlight vision

Religion: +7 (int)
Arcana: +7 (int)
Diplomacy: +10 (cha)
Heal: +6 (wis)
Insight: +3 (wis)
Speaks: Common, Elven, and Primordial
Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, Ritual Caster

Bastard sword, dagger, sling, chainmail, adventurer's kit, ritual book, 13 gp

 

[mrcatman]

nice, but...

Hi there. I like the concept of what you are trying to do here. Well rounded, ok health, melee cleric, Cha helping things like SacFlame, etc.

That being said, in our experience thus far, you might be unhappy. Well rounded seems to be a poor performer from what we can see. Your +5 will only reliably hit minions half the time. Everything else will have ACs around 17-20 (or +2 higher even, since many things seem to have "mob" AC buffs with their allies nearby), so you're going to miss a lot. Even in flank.

Additionally, 28 HPs while decent, almost feels paper thin to us. Especially to a non-stealth / non-perceptive build like yours. Sneaky foes that get the jump on you can potentially down you before you can act. It's happened to us. And if those foes happen to be smart and recognize you as a healer, then might go out of their way to target you first (grin). I only mention this because you are making an upfront cleric swinging a sword in two hands. 28 HPs and average AC with no shield (as opposed to paladin with 20 AC) can be a quick death.

Your low Wis really weakens several powers you have, healing, turn undead, sacred flame, etc. To the point that they will most likely miss with a mere +1 to hit.

Your Int 14 (+2), while nice for knowledge skills, Ref Def or multiclassing into wizard, really doesn't do enough for you.

Speed 5 seems fine in our experience. You can always run at +2 to move 7 squares if you really need to (CA to enemies, but no biggie).

If you are focused on melee cleric, I'd just say go all out on it to enhance your chance of hitting and being effective. Pump up Str/Con rest in Wis. Take toughness feat (sounds weird, but that extra 5 seems to make all the difference at level 1) and use a mace or spear 2 handed until you get your next feat at 2nd (when you can pick up your bastard sword). Towards that end, if you are not married to half-elf, a dragonborn is nice (Str bump + nice surge values + breath weapon for minions, since you are already in melee) or if your DM allows it, a warforged (a race you can play as a PC from the MM) for bump to str/con & neat construct qualities.

For example:

Dragonborn/Cleric
Str 18, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10
Feat: Toughness
HP: 33
Surge/Day: 10
Surge Value: 11 (because of racial trait)
AC: 16
Fort: 14
Ref: 11
Will: 13
Breath Weapon: +6 vs. Ref (1d6+3)
CD: DFortune
CD: TUndead
HWord

assumes two-handing a mace for versatile bonus...
(aw) Priest's shield: +6 vs. AC (1d8+5); ally gains +1 AC
(aw) R.Brand: +6 vs. AC (1d8+5); ally gains +4 attack
(enc) H.Strike: +6 vs. AC (2d8+5); mark/ally healing surge
(dai) Avg.Flame: +6 vs. AC (2d8+5); ongoing 5


Now this guy can take a hit, has a better chance of hitting foes, heals 1/3 of his health each surge, already qualifies for better armor feats (up to plate armor) and heavy shield, can drop a decent area blast while in melee to drop all the minions and still heals as well as your build. The killer aspect is the +4 ally attack bonus from R.Brand at will power. If they happen to be flanking with you, that's +6 to their attack. Better yet, it applies to all attacks that ally makes until the end of your next turn, not just one attack. THAT'S HUGE! A two-weapon fighting ranger with twin strike. A Fighter with OAs from shifting foes. You name it. It just rocks.

Damage-wise, your bastard sword 1d10+3 is range 4-13, while this 1d8+5 is range 6-13, and 2d10+3 (5-23) vs. 2d8+5 (7-21) on the encounter/daily. So you net out roughly the same damage on enc/daily and better on at wills with this build. At level two, if you take the bastard sword feat, you get +8 vs. AC now on all your stuff (+1 more proficiency over mace and +1 half level bump). Very respectable melee attack at level 2.

You've basically lost some points to your cha/int skills. Meh. You can always take Skill Focus (diplomacy), etc. to make up for it. Grab feats up to plate armor, heavy shield, one hand your bastard sword, and you'll be styling.

Heck, I'd even be tempted to go full out and buy a Str 18 for Str 20 after racial adjustment. Better hit, damage & bonus for R.Brand.

All of that being said, there is nothing wrong with your build. A lot of this depends on what your other PCs are, how the DM runs things, and the adventure. If you had a killer PC recon specialist (say, rogue or ranger with crazy high stealth/perception), your team might never get ambushed. So the potential for you going down in an alpha strike might be really low.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Mokona]

Thanks for the help, mrcatman. While I know that Half-elf is less than optimal for a Cleric, I am set on it. I'd consider all other changes except Race & Class.

The team has a bow Ranger (my wife), a Wizard, my Cleric, and two other characters (at least one of which will be a Fighter or Paladin).

* - I have a lot of influence over the bow Ranger build which will be a Human.

 

[phil500]

Thanks for the help, mrcatman. While I know that Half-elf is less than optimal for a Cleric, I am set on it. I'd consider all other changes except Race & Class.

While its nice to see someone considering role playing over roll playing, most of the help here will say "you need a +2 from your race in at least 1 stat you hit with".

that said, you need to get that str up to 16 at least. Even then I think you will be frustrated more than anything- your healing strikes will go to waste more often, your righteous brands will hit less often and buff for less, and you will limit yourself to about half of the cler powers available. Your cha mod will go to waste, since a lot of the powers which use cha as a secondary need wisdom to hit, such as sacred flame.

I know you are set on your combination, but just for comparison: a dwarf can get a 16 in str and an 18 in wis and still have 4 points left over for other things. that is, he can hit better, heal better, and cast better.

 

[Blackbrrd]

If you are dead set on a Half-elf cleric, you need to focus on either str or wis, not both. Wisdom is used for healing and powers, while str is only used for powers. ditch str in other words.

Put 18 in wis, 13+2racial in cha and 13+2racial in con, and you are left with 10,10 and 8. If this is too drastic for you, give yourself a 17 in wis, this gives you 4 more points.

Other than that, only pick wis-based powers.

 

[mrcatman]

I'd consider all other changes except Race & Class.

Echoing the above posts, and pretty much the gist of my initial post, I highly suggest focusing in melee (str) or ranged (wis). Your original build is nicely well rounded, but (I believe) might really frustrate you with lots of misses and general ineffectiveness.

Sounds like you've got 2 ranged (bow ranger & wizard), one melee (fighter or paly), one unknown and you. Alas, I think your decision to be melee or ranged cleric might hinge on that last unknown. One big reason is because of R.Brand power for your str-based cleric. If the fighter is the only one that can take advantage of it, and he's built for defense, it wouldn't serve you as well as, say, an ally melee rogue or damage-based defender. Another is filling skill voids, such as you trying to fill the diplomacy/voice role if no one else has it.

Personally, I think cleric shines best as high Wis ranged guy. Great damage & great heals. If you wanted to mix it up more in melee, I would have suggested a str-based warlord (same role as cleric), but you said you were fixed on cleric.

I still think much of this depends on your allies. Wizard is illusionist? More controller-esk powers or damage? Defender is paly? Str or Wis/Cha based? Defender is fighter? Damage or defense? High chance of hitting with his anti-shift melee control? Ranger solid in both stealth/perception, and taking STraining(thievery)?

Just not clear if you want the best fit for your group, or just the image of a half-elf cleric with well rounded stats two-handing a bastard sword with a silver tongue. (grin)

 

[Mokona]

I feel like I can either go STR 14 and pick up armor and shields OR I ca go DEX 14 for Astral Fire and better Ref defense. Thanks for helping me. I think the Wizard will focus on fireballs (i.e. mass damage). I hope we'll have a Paladin and a Fighter but there is a small chance we'll have a rogue instead of one of the defenders.

Daily - ?

Encounter - Eldritch Blast, Eyebite, or Bolstering Strike

Encounter - Cause Fear or Divine Glow

Encounter - Divine Fortune OR Turn Undead
Divine Fortune
Free Action - Personal
+1 to next attack roll or saving throw

Turn Undead
Standard Action - Close burst 2
Each undead in burst - +3 vs. Will
Hit: 1d10+3 radiant dmg, push 6 squares, and immobilize for 1 turn
Miss: Half dmg, not immobilized or pushed

Encounter (twice) - Healing Word
Minor Action - Close burst 5
You or one ally
Effect: Target can healing surge + 1d6+3 hit points healed

At Will - Lance of Faith

At Will - Sacred Flame
Standard Action - Ranged 5
One creature - +3 vs. Ref
Hit: 1d6+3 radiant dmg and one ally gains 3 temporary hit points

Str: +2 (14)
Dex: -1 (8)
Con: +2 (15)
Int: +0 (10)
Wis: +3 (16)
Cha: +3 (16)

Hit Points: 27 - 9 healing surges per day (6 hit points each)
AC: 17 - Speed 5 (Chainmail + shield)
Fort: 12
Ref: 11
Will: 15 - Lowlight vision

Religion: +5 (int)
Diplomacy: +10 (cha)
Heal: +8 (wis)
Insight: +10 (wis)
Speaks: Common, Elven, and Primordial
Shield Proficiency (Light), Ritual Caster

Mace, dagger, sling, chainmail, shield, adventurer's kit, ritual book