Help with math: how do you not fall behind?

[SteveC]

Here's a question that is inspired by creating a high level paragon character. The math in 4E is designed to work across all levels and keep everything balanced, correct? The problem I'm having is trying to balance this with higher level play.

The formula for defenses is that a creature should have defenses equal to some base value plus their level. So a level 30 monster will have defenses 30 points higher than level one (actually, as I read it, it should be 29 better, since level one monsters still add their level to their base defense value, but you get the idea.

On the character side of things, I don't see how characters get to that same level, so here's my math. When you are a level 30 character, you should have:

+15 level bonus
+4 from stats (+5 if a demigod)
+6 from equipment
+1 possibly from a prestige path (e.g., kensai)

That totals +25, or +27 if you're a kensai demigod. It still doesn't equal what the monsters end up with at that level.

With all that said, am I missing something, or is this what the designers intended? Currently I am playing a rogue, and I notice that I can hit opponents all the time, so if it were to become a little harder as I leveled up, I wouldn't miss it that much.

On the other hand my wizard, warlock and cleric friends are hitting not nearly as often (even targeting weaker defenses) so you're telling me they should be even less likely to hit at higher levels?

I'm confused, which usually means I'm overlooking something fairly simple, so school me, ENWorld!

--Steve

 

[chitzk0i]

Are you forgetting about level-up points? You ought to have more than +4 from stats! Even if you start with a 16, you could have a 22 in your main stat by level 21 if you increase it whenever you can.

 

[SteveC]

Are you forgetting about level-up points? You ought to have more than +4 from stats! Even if you start with a 16, you could have a 22 in your main stat by level 21 if you increase it whenever you can.

I don't think I am: if you increase your stats by +1 at levels 4, 8, 11, 14, 18, 21, 24 and 28 they go up by +8, which translates into a +4 bonus to your rolls.

--Steve

 

[MrMyth]

From level 1-30, monster's Defenses will rise by 29 points.
A PCs attack will rise by 25 points from default bonuses.

Other possible bonuses:
Paragon Paths (Kensai, Battlefield Archer, etc)
Epic Destinies (Demigod)
Conditional Bonuses from Feats (Nimble Blade, Hellfire Blood, Student of the Sword, Back to the Wall, Elven Precision, Precise Hunter, Moradin's Resolve, Action Surge, etc)
Conditional Bonuses from items (Berserker Weapons, Helm of the Eagle, Headband of Intellect, Totemic Belt, Opal Ring of Remembrance, etc)
Greater ability to acquire Combat Advantage (through Stealth, items, powers, etc)
More bonuses from Powers, both on ones own, and through allies, especially Leaders - and many Powers that reduce the enemy's Defenses as well.
More access to Weapon powers that target Non-AC Defenses.

Now, I don't think all of these translate fully into a +5 bonus for every character. But I'd say it is probably worth +2 to +3 to hit, in total. By level 30, every character is going to have a number of tricks to help them hit, and they will be constantly seeing buffs thrown around that give sizable bonuses to hit.

In addition to the various bonuses they are gaining via all this, they are also much more potent - more status effects, more multi-target attacks, and just more Encounter and Daily Powers overall. The level 1 character has 2 At Wills, 1 Encounter and 1 Daily Power. By level 10, he has 2 At Wills, 3 Encounter, 3 Daily and 3 Utility Powers. By level 20, he has 2 At Wills, 4 Encounter, 4 Daily, and 5 Utility Powers. By level 30, he has gained Epic Destiny features that can throw these guidelines out the window - in addition to now being able to crit more often, triggering all manner of special effects, and use more powers from magic items that are - by level 30 - very, very effective.

So I'd say that difference counts as another +2... in some ways, I think, the math was balanced around the high-level play, and then they gave some extra bonuses to low-level play to make up for the lack of options - an average high-level character is designed to generally hit half the time, while a first level character will hit more often (to make up for being much more reliant on At Will Powers.)

From what I can tell, the math isn't quite perfect (and that's even with making the assumptions I made earlier, which are admittedly somewhat arbitrary.) I'd say there is a +1 missing in their somewhere, putting level 30 characters ever so slightly behind - especially since they aren't likely to face average level 30 monsters, but instead Ancient Dragons and the like, whose Defenses will be above average. On the other hand, having that small extra step of difficulty in the end-game isn't entirely unreasonable - but I suspect those who have played their characters from levels 1 to 30, and have grown skilled at using them as effectively as possible, will be up to the challenge.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

If you start with a 16 in your key stat at level 1, your should have a 24 by level 30. The maximum possible in core is to start with a 20 and get an additional +2 by being a demigod for a total of 30 at level 30.

But lets assume a 24 in the primary attack stat. Thats a:
+7 ability modifier.
+6 enhancement bonus from a magic item.
+15 from level.
+0 or +2 or +3 from weapon proficiency modifier (if applicable)
Thats a +28(+30 w/ weapon). Could be up to +3 higher from a high ability score, +1 higher from a class feature for a weapon user, another +1 from a paragon path for a weapon user, (total of +31 max or +36 with a +3 proficiency bonus) and of course situational modifiers.

But we'll assume a +28 or +30 w/ a weapon.
According to the DMG the typical skirmisher for instance will have an AC of 14+level and other defenses of 12+level. So a level 30 soldier should have 44 AC or a 42 in other defenses.

Meaning a non weapon attack will need a 14 or better on a d20 roll to hit. 11 or better to hit if you have a maxed out non-weapon attack.

Might not be bad considering you will likely have other stuff adding situational bonuses to attack rolls or letting you reroll attacks. But I really can't say.

 

[Turtlejay]

This concerns me. Maybe someone who has actually played a high level campaign/session could contribute? Maybe something is being left out? It looks like folks are accounting for weapon proficiency, rogue and fighter weapon talent, etc. and it still looks a little broken.

Ah well, I doubt I'll ever get this high anyways...

Jay

 

[James McMurray]

We just now hit 23rd, and sometimes a PC will have a hard time hitting, other times he'll hit 70+% of the time. It depends on whether he's targetting the opponent's weak, average, or strong defenses.

There are also other bonuses that frequently come into play, from the fairly frequent combat advantage to the less frequent buyt more useful Power bonus granted by a Leader.

 

[James McMurray]

I think the difference is more pronounced when looking at PC stats. If it's their high defense, a monster is going to struggle to hit it. The 41 ACs in the party are a pain in the butt for anything that isn't several levels higher than them to hit. However, the fighter in full plate's reflex is only 28, and he gets hit almost every time someone targets it. The Swordmage's fortitude is pretty low, and he'll be hit much easier there. Meanwhile the cleric's Will is ~36, and mental attacks bounce right off.

Despite the disparities though, things have worked pretty well so far. The biggest problem we've seen is that the nastiest status effects (stun and dominate) target wqhat is usually a weak defense for the party (Will).

 

[Runestar]

Seems like every PC will have at least 1 defense that is auto-hit for the enemy...

 

[Dragonblade]

I don't think I am: if you increase your stats by +1 at levels 4, 8, 11, 14, 18, 21, 24 and 28 they go up by +8, which translates into a +4 bonus to your rolls.

--Steve

Correct but you're forgetting that the primary ability score for your class should be between 16-20 at level 1. Meaning there is an additional +3 to +5 coming from stats that you aren't accounting for.

A level 30 PC should have a +6 item and their primary attack stat should range from 24-30 assuming they started with a score around 16-20.

For example, a human fighter starting with STR 18 at level 1 and ending up as a demigod. By level 30, assuming he has a +6 bastard sword will have an attack bonus against AC of: 15 (level) + 6 (magic) + 3 (proficiency) + 9 (STR of 28) = 33.

Assuming he is fighting a Tarrasque with an AC of 43, that means he will hit with a 10 or higher on a d20. Seems reasonable to me.

Now if he fights Orcus with an AC of 48, things get a little tougher. He needs a 15 or higher to hit. But if you consider that a 30th level PC will get various boosts and buffs from allies, combat advantage, etc. Then the fight gets more manageable. Still tough, though.

The math holds for non-AC attack powers too. On average monster defenses are probably about 3 less than their ACs which works out to the same math once you take away the proficiency bonus that weapons provide when attacking AC.