Help with monk bonus feats

and the magic item selection limitations would make shelling out on a ring of FoM much less a conundrum. You buy casting stat +6, some others +2, some cheap AC and save boosts, and...then what? What's more valauble than tentacle rape protection after that in core?)

I do not dispute this, and when I play I absolutely buy the Ring of Freedom of Movement as soon as I can. However, it's still not there in a lot of adventures. Then again maybe I read a lot of adventures under level 10ish. Either way, you won't have to worry about it for a good chunk of levels. Also, I don't know how those spells you're bringing up negate grapple. Do they lack somatic components, material components, and teleport you out of the grapple in 1 standard action or something? If they do, that sounds amazing for a low level spell. Dim door does, but it's hardly low level. Even if they do all that, you've still achieved the same thing as a plain stunning fist. The caster has lost his turn. You'll come next in initiative anyway, and you can just grab him again.
 

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I do not dispute this, and when I play I absolutely buy the Ring of Freedom of Movement as soon as I can. However, it's still not there in a lot of adventures. Then again maybe I read a lot of adventures under level 10ish. Either way, you won't have to worry about it for a good chunk of levels. Also, I don't know how those spells you're bringing up negate grapple. Do they lack somatic components, material components, and teleport you out of the grapple in 1 standard action or something? If they do, that sounds amazing for a low level spell. Dim door does, but it's hardly low level. Even if they do all that, you've still achieved the same thing as a plain stunning fist. The caster has lost his turn. You'll come next in initiative anyway, and you can just grab him again.

Benign Transposition is a standard action, Verbal-only spell that teleports two willing targets such that they trade places. If your party has a Fighter, Monk, etc..., you just swap him into the grapple and smile. MIC has a bunch of cheap items that let you teleport a few times per day, and can be activated in a grapple. Tome of Battle has a maneuver anyone can grab as a feat or a 3000 gp glove slot item at level 6+ to teleport up to 50 ft as a standard action, as a Supernatural ability.*

And yeah, you cna grab him again, assuming he stays within your attack range or doesn't wisen up and put up more grapple defenses or battlefield control. Of course, D&D is group combat. You wasted his turn, but he wasted your turn aside from the unarmed damage you got in. As you're chasing after the caster, his buddies are pounding on you.

*All martial maneuvers are Ex or Su abilities, and the text says that it's Ex unless the maneuver states otherwise. For some reason, the writers missed putting Su for the teleport maneuvers of the Shadow Hand discipline, so RAW they even work in an Antimagic Field. Of course, most DMs will houserule them to be Su on the spot (including myself), but even then you can use Su abilities while grappled and/or pinned without issue.
 

Well I think we may have to agree to disagree here. Just a few more points.

Grappling requires an attack vs. touch AC, then a grapple check. Stunning fist requires an attack vs regular AC, then a fort save. Clearly grappling is easier. Also, if the GM is optimizing the wizards, I find it more likely that he would optimize their fort save more than their grapple.

If you encounter an enemy with a low enough AC and fort save, you can use shuriken and poison.

You can do some good stuff when you have a grappling advantage. Stunning fist opens up no further combat options.

You can grapple all day, stunning fist has a number of allowed per day uses.

The +4 grapple bonus from improved grapple is useful defensively against one of the more annoying monster tactics.

If you want to further powergame grappling, you can use enlarge person and the half-vampire template.
 

Heart of Water
Sor/Wiz 3
Gives Freedom of Movement when discharged.

HA!

IOW, 5-6th level, not 7th.

Stunning fist opens up no further combat options.

Um...I think you're overstating this by quite a bit.

A stunned creature drops everything held (goodbye, Rod, Staff or Wand), can’t take actions (forget casting, controlling an ongoing spell, etc.), takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (Hello, Mr. Target!).
 


Exactly- a spell available as early as 5 or 6th level for an arcanist (depending on class) as opposed to 7th level.

Freakahollik was off by a level or 2, not a big thing, IMHO.
 

Well I think we may have to agree to disagree here. Just a few more points.

Grappling requires an attack vs. touch AC, then a grapple check. Stunning fist requires an attack vs regular AC, then a fort save. Clearly grappling is easier. Also, if the GM is optimizing the wizards, I find it more likely that he would optimize their fort save more than their grapple.


I guess we will have to. However, I'd like to state this another way: "Stunning Fist requires a fortitude save." You choose to use it after you hit, so anything that happens prior to choosing to use it is irrelevant. It costs no action, it's purely an extra topping on the kung fu sundae. You also neglect to mention that grappling someone else leaves the grappler vulnerable. Stunning someone doesn't inconvenience the stunner in the slightest bit. And yes, fortitude is a tough save to beat, but at least the DC rises with level, unlike spell DCs. And the thing with grapple is, it's not an incremental set of conditions. Oftentimes, it either works or it doesn't. As my friend puts it, "it has no setting between high and off." If it works, and you're optimized ot grapple, you can probably dominate. But if the enemy has grapple countermeasures prepared, it won't do much if anything. And because of it utterly dominating in the former case, eventually anyone afraid of that happening will find it worth it economically to get protected. Someone can have a +50 fortitude save and still roll a 1 (or alternatively, if you want to bring up Mind Over Body maneuver, you can just use stunning fist after they've already exhausted their immediate action for the round). Someone with Freedom of Movement? There's no chance of beating that, other than a dispel magic. Like I said, grapple works good in the early levels, when mages aren't much of a threat anyway, which...kind of negates the importance of being good at "mage slaying." Right around the time magic starts dominating martial -- level 6+, generally, is when the anti-grapple measures have become plentiful and easy to obtain.

If you encounter an enemy with a low enough AC and fort save, you can use shuriken and poison.

You can do some good stuff when you have a grappling advantage. Stunning fist opens up no further combat options.

You can grapple all day, stunning fist has a number of allowed per day uses.

The +4 grapple bonus from improved grapple is useful defensively against one of the more annoying monster tactics.

If you want to further powergame grappling, you can use enlarge person and the half-vampire template.

All true. But like I said, the more splat books you add, the sooner and easier it is to make grappling obsolete, at least on the targets you most want to go hug. The closer to core-only you get, the less likely there's even enough "important" feats available that a monk really can't afford to spend one to pick up Imp. Grapple and get Stunning Fist via class. Really, what amazing, must-have monk feats are there in core? The only one I can think of is Imp. Natural Attack (unarmed strike).

If you really think Stunning Fist is useless, then yeah, there's not much reason to take it over Imp. Grapple, obviously. But, if you think it'd be even slightly useful to have, there's no logical reason to ever take Imp. Grapple via class and then have to wait until mid levels to pick up Stunning Fist. That was all I was saying originally. I don't know why it turned into such a big debate. Because I assumed Stunning Fist would be useful to a straight classed monk? Hell, even if you're making a grapple monkey, you can grapple, punch, AND stun a guy if you want. That works well, too. Stunning and then grappling would be a nice combo during a flurry of blows.
 



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