Help with Princes of the Apocalypse

[Tyranthraxus]

Hi,

Im running Princes of the Apocalypse for my local store (only table) and Ive been having a few off and off issues with difficulty levels namely I have a wildly fluctuating player level at my table.

I ran Lost Mine where I ended up with some level 5 characters who have moved on to this table (well most of them did and then I lost some), however Ive been getting some brand new players/ characters recently which has sorta gummed up my process.

After travelling down to Red Larch from the North, the players had a look around town finding an ally in the Cleric of Tempus and of Sune. At the time however my average character level was 4-5 because of Lost Mine so I didnt run any of the real low level side stuff except the Moving Stones scenario under the town which caused some of the town npcs to get killed off. Having heard about the Feathergale spire , I lost a couple of my level 4s just before hitting the spire.

The characters were treated with respect by the 'greeter' and allowed admittance and I did the Hunt scene (after getting some brand new players this session). I then had a level 6 join (his game completely folded as the dm who was running Hoard just stopped turning up and the other players.. well there was just no more room on my table.. the level 6 was the only one who could get a spot).

I had to tweak the manticore hunt ( I put 2 in) which did help the level 1s hit level 2 quickly and then after a refusal by one of the players to join the knights we had a big melee, which left one player standing. I got those characters up to level 3 (which is what ther Spire is sorta aimed at).

One of my 5's dropped out and was replaced by a new 1 and the party moved into the Valley around the spire to clean it out. They avoided a certain area (which might of advanced the plot in a strange direction). They engaged the Gnolls and Manticore and Hippogriff. So Ive got more players are to 3 out of that.

Using information they got from the leader at the Spire, next stop was the Monastery which they are currently in. I had a brand new level 1 player turn up for the first part, only to disappear and be replaced by another level 1 new character next session by another new player. Im not exactly sure of the difficulty here but I had to find some bizarre intermediate between the 1 and the 6.. and its becoming very hard work. Hallenrae has been killed and they are currently in the Shrine of Stone about to be attacked by 2 Gargoyles.

Im just not sure where to send them first. I basically have to lead them around by hand and whilst Id like them to go to Wormford next Im not sure if there is anything in the Monastery pointing there. I was also planning on having a Cultist revenge attack next.

Any assistance would be great

(Current party levels
Level 6 barbarian
Level 5 Ranger
Level 5 Paladin
Level 1 Rogue
Level 3 Wizard
Level 3 Fighter
Level 1 Fighter

 

[kalani]

Eww.. That is a huge discrepancy in level and one I do not envy you for. My honest suggestion to you is to see if you can somehow split this group into two separate tables. Failing that, I would strongly suggest you ask the 3 high-level characters (and especially the L6 character) if they would be interested in making a new 1st level character. While Encounters has wiggle room in level range, higher level characters should not be more than 2 levels above the party APL (which is APL 2 for your low level characters).

Since your low-level characters cannot advance to the next tier, the logical solution is to ask the higher level characters to make new 1st level characters. They might not be happy with this option, but you can always sell the idea as giving them an opportunity to try something else they haven't played yet, while also giving them a fresh character with no magic items. Explain to them that it is almost impossible to balance an adventure with such a large level range, and draw their attention to the following FAQ in support of your request:

When playing the hardcover adventures (e.g., Hoard of the Dragon Queen or Princes of the Apocalypse), can characters of different tiers adventure in the same party?

Yes. The Tier paradigm is in place for the D&D Expeditions because each tier has a pretty large power difference than the previous or later tier. Since each D&D Expeditions adventure stands on its own, it's easy to make sure that characters fit within the tier structure. For the published hardcover adventures, however; it's not quite as easy. When players and characters drop in and out of the game, the characters will end up with different character levels and as the game advances some characters will start new.

For example, there may be a time when most characters in the group are 4th level and there may be another character who is 2nd level. When those 4th level characters advance to 5th level and the 2nd level character is 3rd or 4th level, they're technically in different tiers. It's unfair to say that 3rd or 4th level character cannot play with the 5th level characters because of the tier paradigm.

A good rule to follow is that if a character is within 1 or 2 levels from the average party level (APL) they should have no trouble fitting into the group. If they're further away from the APL there's likely a chance (especially at low levels) that lower level characters will die easily.​

 

[Tyranthraxus]

Sadly Ive already asked them to do so and been rebuffed Kalani. the Level 6 and Level 5's have been there the longest (the 2 level 5's have been there since session 1 of Lost Mine) and I didnt get a 'nice' reaction when I suggest everyone start with level 1 characters. Ive been trying to recruit a second Encounters DM for a long time without any luck. In fact I wasnt originally an encounters dm at all.

All the previous ones we have had have just stopped for whatever reason and not come back. (We also had massive issues with people startng out dming to AL rules.. but then saying 'Wheres all the gold rewards in lost mine? and then changing the game so much it wasnt AL anymore) So I quickly jumped in with Lost Mine.. and the rest is history. My current goal has been to get the 1's up as quick as possible. (Which I have had some luck with), but Encounters night is very lucky dip of late.

Now its entirely possible the Level 6 and level 3 will die tonight.. they have split off from the party and are currently under the parts location in the Monastery.
I guess Id just like a stable player table where everyone isnt playing Musical chairs.

 

[Coreyartus]

My suggestion for you is to use the prisoners to guide the party to Rivergard Keep through their descriptions and storytelling of their kidnapping. I can see why you'd might want them to go to Womford so they'd eventually work their way north to Rivergard Keep, but perhaps there are other ways of getting them there. The dwarf prisoner might be more interested in getting east to Summit Hall, which might conveniently put your party next to Rivergard Keep as well if they decide the best way to escort the prisoners to safety is to take them there themselves. Or are there some prisoners who happen to be from Womford that need an escort south to home, perhaps?

Sounds like you'll need to adjust Rivergard Keep to an appropriate CR for your party. If they have a couple random encounters on the way there, the Level 1s might make it to at least level 2. Depending on how challenging the revenge attacks you plan are, perhaps they can make it to level 3? I'd compose those random encounters with just enough XP to get them to a higher level but not elevate the higher level PCs too much... If the party thinks the goal is to get to Summit Hall, perhaps they might learn from traveling Druids about Scarlet Moon Hall? Or perhaps some of those XP-generating "random encounters" lead them to the Keep? Or do they hear from the Knights about how they've heard rumors from Druids they've encountered as they have been doing training exercises in the area? Or fought off a party of Water Cultists near the river?

I've used planned random encounters to help accrue XP for lower level PCs a lot. It levels out the disparity a bit, and it's an opportunity for you to plant seeds that might guide them in directions you need them to go.

 

[Tyranthraxus]

This is great thanks.

Ive currently had 2 characters (the level 6 and level 3) go down the stairs in the Shrine of Stone. Then a level 1 above found the level and pulled it effectively blocking those 2 characters down there. Meanwhile the Gargoyles outside (2 of ) in the entry area are going to move into the room to attack the defilers. The ones out in the Garden will stay put.

(I left last session with the level 1 pulling the lever)

Should be interesting.

Thanks for the advice re the prisoners . (The party knows about Summit Hall but rarely remembers any details about such things!)

Riverguard Keep is Designed for Level 4 average? I thought the Monastery was for Level 4, with the SPire being for 3 and the Keep 5 with the Scarlet Moon 6.

 

[MerricB]

I'd start using some of the side-treks in Chapter 6 - there are some lower-level (4,5) ones there that shouldn't be hard to adapt, give the PCs some contacts, and much-needed XP.

Cheers!

 

[Coreyartus]

This is great thanks.

Riverguard Keep is Designed for Level 4 average? I thought the Monastery was for Level 4, with the SPire being for 3 and the Keep 5 with the Scarlet Moon 6.

Technically, Rivergard Keep is for Level 3's, Stone Monastery is for Level 4s, and Scarlet Moon Hall for Level 5s. When you're done with Scarlet Moon Hall, the PCs should reach level 6. I think you may have got yourself a little out of order, which might be making the whole level disparity at your table an even more complicated factor to balance...

At least, that's the way I understood it... :/

 

[Ainulindalion]

I know we had a level 1 join our table (of 5/6's) in the Monastery. They got ~2100XP that single night. It ought to balance out pretty quick.

If you have some free time outside of encounters with your lower level players, run some low level expeditions so that they have enough DT to jump from 4 to 5. Also, the 5 and 6 players won't be able to play, so...

 

[Tyranthraxus]

Perhaps I did get a little muddled on the levels (but to be honest) they got the information on the Monastery from the Spire. The party is notoriously bad for not recording leads and then me having to recap a huge chunk all the time and there is no lead from the Spire to the Keep as far as I know. There is however from the Monastery to the Keep.

I know next time I finish running Lost Mine and want to run a module next i will NOT let any characters continue on into the module. Everyone will start from scratch.

 

[Coreyartus]

Perhaps I did get a little muddled on the levels (but to be honest) they got the information on the Monastery from the Spire. The party is notoriously bad for not recording leads and then me having to recap a huge chunk all the time and there is no lead from the Spire to the Keep as far as I know. There is however from the Monastery to the Keep.

I know next time I finish running Lost Mine and want to run a module next i will NOT let any characters continue on into the module. Everyone will start from scratch.

Do your players play a lot of Expeditions, or played in previous OPs? I've discovered that my players had some of the same problems recording leads in the beginning, and I think that might be a habit "learned" from Organized Play by virtue of how it is normally played--adventures that are completed within 4 hours with a beginning, middle, and end... I'm not sure a lot of players were expecting to remember a lot of the details, as they didn't expect them to come back and be important so many weeks later down the line. I sometimes had to lead my players by the nose because they didn't ask the big questions that might normally be asked in a big over-arching campaign. They've become better and more attentive as they've played on.

I've also read that some of the Episodes don't contain enough XP to level up a full table, so some of those Random Encounters might be very necessary to accommodate leveling. I've "composed" Episodes and planted seeds that led the party to the next steps in their journey that way.

Alternatively, embracing the Sandbox nature of the adventure and having the party get in over their heads (requiring retreat from upper level dungeons they're not ready for) is also an option if you don't want to lead them too pointedly.

To be honest, balancing out the visiting player/random levels thing makes Encounters really really challenging. I, personally, couldn't do it. Theory and practicality don't really mesh in reality for Encounters... My table decided they didn't want to be open to that much "churn" nor spending time filling new players in on storyline elements that weren't ultimately relevant to too many guest players who didn't really care... We ended up shifting to a closed homeplay game once we hit Tier 2 and we were out of the Encounters program. It was a tough decision to make, but even some other players and DMs were jealous we'd made the decision to actually finish the story, so we didn't get much flak. It opened up another table for different players and a new DM at my store, so everyone won in the end.

I'm not saying you should do that at all. And perhaps your store will be open to allowing you to continue as a Casual Play/Homegame-using-AL-rules table played at their store (unlike mine that didn't have the space). But it is my belief that as you get deeper and deeper into the adventure, the less sense it's going to make to visiting players to your table. Paradoxically, the more you need your players to record leads the less "guest friendly" your table may become.

The truth of the matter is that the Encounters material works best when you've got a continual group of people who aren't porting in and out very much at all, who are interested in playing it from beginning to end. I couldn't make the Encounters requirements work, and the vast majority of tables that have tried (that I know of) also ended up dropping out because they couldn't make it work either. This is a REAL problem for AL Encounters, I think, and you're getting hit with it smack dab in the face. I don't envy you. But fight the good fight before you make big decisions. Your situation may be entirely different from the one's I've seen and heard about as well as my own.