D&D 5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.

Lol, sure.

Make them both champions (to remove spell or maneuver choice from affecting the outcome). Give the melee fighter Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master to maximize his damage. Give the archer Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter. Give them both +1 weapons and full plate. And run a simulation of the outcome of the combatants trading blows back and forth in the most boring of duels ever 1000 times.

I'm fairly certain the crossbow archer wins out simply because they have about 10% higher DPR, but I would love to see your analysis of the situation.

I haven't finished writing the Death Slaad, because it's more complicated to simulate the various spells, etc., and I haven't coded Action Surge, but aside from that here's the result against an earth elemental:

https://repl.it/EyQy/0

It takes quite a while to run 100 combats in the online emulator (just hit the Run button) so you might want to decrease the number of runs (on line 281 of the script) before running it, but here's a typical output when run against an earth elemental:

Rufus the Archer wins 100 out of 100 matches, with 81.120000 HP remaining (65.419355% of total)
Brutus the Tank wins 100 out of 100 matches, with 107.400000 HP remaining (86.612903% of total)


Details of the combats are in the source code and combat logs, but basically what happens is that Brutus the Tank grabs the elemental with one hand and slams it to the ground on his first turn and then beats it to death with his magic rapier at advantage while it futilely tries to attack him back at disadvantage--and half the time, when it does hit him, he parries it with Defensive Duelist. Rufus the Archer just does the boring "shoot it every round" strategy.

Both of them can take on a single earth elemental (Medium Fight) but obviously Brutus is about twice as good at it.

It's simple to model a spell-less Death Slaad (still a Deadly encounter), and if I comment out the Fireball/Cloudkill/etc. options so it only has Multiattack and run:

Code:
compare deathScuzz [shooter; stabber]

I then get the following output:

Rufus the Archer wins 14 out of 100 matches, with 4.180000 HP remaining (3.370968% of total)
Brutus the Tank wins 93 out of 100 matches, with 45.020000 HP remaining (36.306452% of total)


As you can see, Brutus is almost guaranteed to be able to defeat a CR 10 Death Slaad in a close-quarters cage match (although it is a tough fight), but Rufus is almost guaranteed to lose the fight without Action Surge (which I haven't coded yet).

If you would like to make any tweaks to Rufus the Archer's build or tactical AI, just let me know. I want you to have the chance to run your archer as effectively as possible.
 

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Details of the combats are in the source code and combat logs, but basically what happens is that Brutus the Tank grabs the elemental with one hand and slams it to the ground on his first turn and then beats it to death with his magic rapier at advantage while it futilely tries to attack him back at disadvantage--
That doesn't seem right, for a number of reasons:

  • You shouldn't be able to slam an earth elemental to the ground with one hand. It's way bigger than you are, and half of it is in the ground.
  • Tanks and/or people named Brutus shouldn't use a rapier. It's entirely the wrong image.
  • The earth elemental should stand up before making its attacks. There's no reason to not do so.
 

Ashkelon

First Post
Ouch. 20% is very noticeable, I agree. I recommend playing with others who share a playstyle that does not foster such a clearly biased edge toward ranged combat.

This has nothing to do with playstyle. The 20% damage difference would occur regardless of players or DM. Numerically, a hand crossbow build deals over 20% more DPR than a greatsword build.

The damage difference is not due to me being unable to reach enemies in melee (though that still does happen from time to time). The damage difference comes about because the crossbow archer gets a bonus attack every round and has higher accuracy.

If you are melee-focused, why are you not engaging the enemy such that they are threatened by your OAs and susceptible to them should they ignore that threat? Also, does your sword run out of ammo like the crossbowman?

I do fight enemies in such a way as to threaten as many OAs as possible. But rarely does an OA actually trigger. I feel lucky if I make just one or two OAs per session. In 5e, enemies are free to run around my fighter to their hearts content without provoking an OA. It makes tanking much more difficult than in previous editions.

On top of that however, the archer fighter could threaten OAs as well. The crossbow archer can close into melee range and shoot enemies at point blank range. At the end of each turn he can draw a melee weapon to threaten OAs. At the start of his turn, he simply needs to drop the weapon and make attacks with his hand crossbow as normal.

Also, I haven't played in a game that tracked ammo in a long time.

A system cannot mandate, nor enforce, parity. It is incumbent on the players around the table to do so.

A gaming system can definitely enforce parity. It is usually quite simple to do so. You design the game with sound math so that the various options comparable. Then you apply checks and balances to the various options.

In fact, the core combat rules of 5e are fairly well balanced. With the core rules, the highest damage melee weapon is the greatsword and the highest damage ranged weapon is the longbow. With a 20 in a prime stat, the greatsword deals 12 average damage per hit and the longbow deals 9.5. This means that the archer deals about 20% less damage than the greatsword wielder, but has the ability to shoot enemies at range.

Being able to attack enemies at range is of course a huge benefit, so the archer has a few other checks on him as well. For example, the archer's attacks are made at disadvantage while within 5 feet of an enemy. The archer also suffers disadvantage when enemies have cover.

Well, once you add feats and fighting styles into the equation, those checks and balances on ranged combat disappear. Suddenly hand crossbow becomes the highest damage weapon in the game. And the archer no longer suffers any penalties for range, cover, or being in melee.
 

That doesn't seem right, for a number of reasons:

  • You shouldn't be able to slam an earth elemental to the ground with one hand. It's way bigger than you are, and half of it is in the ground.
  • Tanks and/or people named Brutus shouldn't use a rapier. It's entirely the wrong image.
  • The earth elemental should stand up before making its attacks. There's no reason to not do so.

Per PHB rules, you can grapple or push a creature up to one size larger than you are. Grappling requires one free hand; Pushing doesn't require any. Earth Elementals are size large, so you can grapple/prone the elemental with your free hand and it's completely legal. It can't get up because it's grappled. You can see this in the combat logs and source code.

Code:
                    // Brutus was created using PHB standard array (15 14 13 12 10 8), variant human Champion 12, with feats Defensive Duelist, Mage Slayer, and Tough; fighting styles Dueling and Defense. Has a +1 Rapier.
                    let stabber() = Combatant("Brutus the Tank", (20, 12, 14, 10, 14, 8, 124), AC=19, Traits = [DefensiveDuelist; MageSlayer; RemarkableAthlete; AthleticsProficient; ImprovedCritical],
                    Actions = [
                        Action.Create("Attack", Attack [
                                                                BestOf (Grapple, BestOf(ShoveProne, Attack.Create "stabs" 10 [DieRoll.Create(1, 8, 8)]))
                                                                BestOf (Grapple, BestOf(ShoveProne, Attack.Create "stabs" 10 [DieRoll.Create(1, 8, 8)]))
                                                                BestOf (Grapple, BestOf(ShoveProne, Attack.Create "stabs" 10 [DieRoll.Create(1, 8, 8)]))
                                                                ])
                    ],
                    BonusActions = [
                        Action.Create("Second Wind", Healing (DieRoll.Create(1, 10, 12)), 1)
                    ])

It could spend its action trying to break your grapple, but I didn't bother coding that up because it's a losing strategy: it spends its action without attacking, probably fails to break the grapple, and if it does break the grapple and stand up the fighter just re-imposes it again next round and gets a free attack. However, if you want to add grapple-breaking to the script's AI, feel free!

Burly Brutus has a pencil moustache too BTW. If you find that incongruity disturbing, he just laughs evilly and twirls it.

I made another thread for discussing the cage match: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...pshooter-vs-Defensive-Duelist-in-a-cage-match
 
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Ashkelon

First Post
I haven't finished writing the Death Slaad, because it's more complicated to simulate the various spells, etc., and I haven't coded Action Surge, but aside from that here's the result against an earth elemental:

https://repl.it/EyQy/0

It takes quite a while to run 100 combats in the online emulator (just hit the Run button) so you might want to decrease the number of runs (on line 281 of the script) before running it, but here's a typical output when run against an earth elemental:

Rufus the Archer wins 100 out of 100 matches, with 81.120000 HP remaining (65.419355% of total)
Brutus the Tank wins 100 out of 100 matches, with 107.400000 HP remaining (86.612903% of total)


Details of the combats are in the source code and combat logs, but basically what happens is that Brutus the Tank grabs the elemental with one hand and slams it to the ground on his first turn and then beats it to death with his magic rapier at advantage while it futilely tries to attack him back at disadvantage--and half the time, when it does hit him, he parries it with Defensive Duelist. Rufus the Archer just does the boring "shoot it every round" strategy.

Both of them can take on a single earth elemental (Medium Fight) but obviously Brutus is about twice as good at it.

It's simple to model a spell-less Death Slaad (still a Deadly encounter), and if I comment out the Fireball/Cloudkill/etc. options so it only has Multiattack and run:

Code:
compare deathScuzz [shooter; stabber]

I then get the following output:

Rufus the Archer wins 14 out of 100 matches, with 4.180000 HP remaining (3.370968% of total)
Brutus the Tank wins 93 out of 100 matches, with 45.020000 HP remaining (36.306452% of total)


As you can see, Brutus is almost guaranteed to be able to defeat a CR 10 Death Slaad in a close-quarters cage match (although it is a tough fight), but Rufus is almost guaranteed to lose the fight without Action Surge (which I haven't coded yet).

If you would like to make any tweaks to Rufus the Archer's build or tactical AI, just let me know. I want you to have the chance to run your archer as effectively as possible.

Very good analysis. I completely agree those outcomes. A defensive focused character who grapple/shoves an enemy causing them to attack with disadvantage, then utilizes defensive duelist to further reduce damage is a force to be reckoned with.

However, my initial claim that the archer is able to fight just as well in melee as the melee oriented fighter was in relation to two characters who were focused on dealing damage. I had already stated earlier in the thread that if I wanted to build a tanky character, I could do so instead.

They are different enough in terms of capabilities from a damage dealing character that there isn't much point in comparing them to each other. They perform different functions in the party, and therefor the comparison is apples to oranges. Perhaps I wasn't clear when talking with you, but my comparison of the archer fighter's capabilities at point blank range are compared to the damage oriented fighter.

It is that comparison that I feel is important to discuss in this thread. That is because the two builds are similar in function. Discussing the most optimal build for party survival is a topic for another thread, and I would agree with you that a build focused on grapple/shoving would be the best choice for a party tank.

Side note: can't the archer grapple/shove too? Sure he is less likely to succeed at the shove and grapple attempts, but only by 3 or 4 points. He will succeed at them eventually. Once the target is grappled, he could switch to a rapier and use defensive duelist.
 

Side note: can't the archer grapple/shove too? Sure he is less likely to succeed at the shove and grapple attempts, but only by 3 or 4 points. He will succeed at them eventually. Once the target is grappled, he could switch to a rapier and use defensive duelist.

It depends on the archer's stats, but don't underestimate the effect of +4 to Str. Rufus will, on average, take about 1.3 rounds to impose grapple/prone on the Death Slaad, and it has a much better chance to break his grapple and stand up. Against Rufus, trying to break the grapple is not a waste of an action, especially when you factor in regeneration, so if Rufus was trying to grapple I'd feel obligated to code up grapple-breaking logic for the Death Slaad, where it tries to compute the usefulness of attempting to break the grapple. Against Brutus (I believe) I already know the answer so I can just hard-code a "don't bother and just attack or cast spells".

Edit: also, the archer does less damage with a Rapier because of no Dueling style, so he'll have a harder time overcoming the Slaad's regeneration.

Don't get me wrong--the Slaad has countermeasures against grapple. Cloudkill creates heavy obscurement which combines with blindsight to cancel out the effects of prone; Fear makes Brutus drop what he's holding and run away; Fireball bypasses AC completely. That's why it's so important for Brutus to have Mage Slayer (and ideally Lucky too, but again, it's complicated writing the AI for when to use Lucky so I didn't yet, I just gave him Tough instead). Like Superman, magic is his weak point. I just haven't coded it up yet.

So don't think of it as a real death slaad--think of it as a stand-in for a generic CR 10 monster, since spells or the lack thereof generally don't affect CR, according to the DMG. (Which just goes to show how crude of a metric CR is. It really doesn't measure deadliness at all; all it's useful for is computing XP awards.)
 
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hawkeyefan

Legend
Very good analysis. I completely agree those outcomes. A defensive focused character who grapple/shoves an enemy causing them to attack with disadvantage, then utilizes defensive duelist to further reduce damage is a force to be reckoned with.

However, my initial claim that the archer is able to fight just as well in melee as the melee oriented fighter was in relation to two characters who were focused on dealing damage. I had already stated earlier in the thread that if I wanted to build a tanky character, I could do so instead.

They are different enough in terms of capabilities from a damage dealing character that there isn't much point in comparing them to each other. They perform different functions in the party, and therefor the comparison is apples to oranges. Perhaps I wasn't clear when talking with you, but my comparison of the archer fighter's capabilities at point blank range are compared to the damage oriented fighter.

It is that comparison that I feel is important to discuss in this thread. That is because the two builds are similar in function. Discussing the most optimal build for party survival is a topic for another thread, and I would agree with you that a build focused on grapple/shoving would be the best choice for a party tank.

Side note: can't the archer grapple/shove too? Sure he is less likely to succeed at the shove and grapple attempts, but only by 3 or 4 points. He will succeed at them eventually. Once the target is grappled, he could switch to a rapier and use defensive duelist.

You know....if you had told me all I needed to do in order to get you to see my point was create a program to simulate battles using different builds, I like totally would have done that like 8 pages ago.

For reals.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think perhaps the main reason that ranged combat doesn't dominate in most 5e games is simply because neither the players nor the DM's want it too. Most players (I think - I could be wrong) don't approach it solely as a tactical number crunching game, and most DM's don't run the bad guys as squads of special forces rangers and snipers.

A lot of players just don't think about it that way. They think "I want to play the badass barbarian who wades into melee" or "I'm the wizard who confounds the enemy with his magic" (Ok, maybe it's only my wizards who actually use the word "confound").

They build a melee fighter, barbarian, ranger, paladin, or rogue because they want to be in melee, not because they've run the numbers and it's tactically more advantageous. It's simply more fun for them. If they play an archer they do it because they feel like playing a ranged character

<snip>

It's just not going to matter for most groups, because the guy who likes playing barbarians is still going to be a barbarian, no matter what. That's the reason he plays the game. The guy who likes playing archers was going to do that anyway.
This is one of the things that makes Mounted Combatant an attractive feat for melee-oriented characters. Melee is normally at a relative disadvantage in open terrain, but Mounted Combatant and a good warhorse together provide mobility, better weapons (lance), and advantage on many attacks whenever you're in open terrain. You can of course do this without any feats at all, but Mounted Combatant eases the logistical aspect (don't need to keep buying fresh warhorses) and provides advantage on many attacks.
These two posts remind me of what is - for me - the great paradox of D&D: it is quite a way down the crunchy, non-transprarent end of the RPG spectrum, yet has more casual or non-crunchy players playing it than all other RPGers put together!

To elaborate: the person who just wants to play a barbarian, an archer, or whatever, would be just as well-served by a loose descriptor system where there is a single character-sheet entry - say "Greataxe-wielding barbarian" with a number next to it. The intricate D&D subsytems of attack number, damage number etc are irrelevant.

But for better or worse D&D doesn't work like this; which is why such a weight falls on the shoulders of the designers to try to ensure that when that sort of player engages the mass of subsystems, the results are broadly what the player was expecting.

The non-transparency is another conributor to results here: the game doesn't just come out and say "If you want to play a melee warrior on the open plains, make sure you take Mounted Combat!" It leaves it all for the players to work out - which makes the risks of outcomes that don't match expectations even greater, and hence amps up even more the pressure on the design team.

4e tried to defuse some of that pressure by increasing the transparency and hence shifting some of the work back onto players (along the lines of "If you do X, Y and Z your PC will work fine under paramaters A, B and C; you can build something else if you want to, and it might work out fine or even better, but if you're going to take that pathway the onus is on you").

But 5e doesn't. The only onus-shifting going on is from the design team onto the GM; but that's potentially quite unreliable for all the well-known reasons, including that asking the GM to make sure that a given player gets what s/he wants out of his/her PC can easily push up against all those intricate sub-systems.

Frankly, I think it shows the calibre of the WotC design team that they've been able to publish a mostly functional game, given these ludicrously extreme constraints under which they're designing it!

A system cannot mandate, nor enforce, parity. It is incumbent on the players around the table to do so.
I think a system can go a fair way, actually. Eg you can tone down all the interacting, unexpected-feedback-generating subsystems (an early example is Runequest, or Traveller if you're happy to jump genres; Dungeon World and HeroWars/Quest are more contemporary examples).

Or, you can build a system where weaker PCs generate GM resources able to be used against stronger PCs (Marvel Heroic RP aims for this: players whose PCs have smaller dice generate more Doom Pool dice for the GM, who can then use those dice to confront the upper-end PCs).

Or, you can set up your instructions to GM and your player resource suites so that differences of mechanical effectiveness between PCs become secondary (Burning Wheel does something like this - in BW, engaging the in-game situation is far more important than succeeding, both in terms of shaping the ongoing fiction and PC development).

Or there is the 4e approach: like 5e, damage capabilities are carefully calibrated (in 4e on a single-encounter basis rather than a 6-8 encounter basis); but then clear non-DPR functions are expressly called out and allocated in pretty big, clear chunks, so a player who builds a non-DPR character is clear on what s/he is getting by way of "compensation" for lack of damage-dealing capability. 5e, by dropping this transparency, has made it easier for disparity among PCs to emerge accidentally/organically.
 

Ashkelon

First Post
You know....if you had told me all I needed to do in order to get you to see my point was create a program to simulate battles using different builds, I like totally would have done that like 8 pages ago.

For reals.

If your point was that you can build a fighter to be a tank and it will perform well in that role, I agreed with that ages ago.

If your point was that a melee fighter built for damage can slip into the role of tank and do so better than the archer, then no I do not agree with that point. The melee fighter built for damage is no better off in melee range than the ranged fighter is.

Besides, Hemlock's example, while very detailed, is still extremely limited. The melee fighter in his example would fair much worse when fighting a Huge sized creature like a Giant because it would be unable to shove or grapple the target. The melee fighter would also fair worse versus a group of enemies such as a pack of Dire Wolves or a horde of Hobgoblins because he can only utilize defensive duelist once per round and would need to make the grapple and shove attempts much more frequently. The archer fighter's performance isn't hindered in these circumstances as he is not relying on a specific combination of tactics to perform his desired action.

Of course, multiclassing and the use of other subclasses also drastically changes the outcome here. Both builds would benefit from being an eldritch knight, though the archer probably benefits to a greater degree. The shield spell can mostly replace the need for the defensive duelist feat for example. The SCAG cantrips can give the archer a powerful opportunity attack if he decides to take the warcaster feat. A single level in rogue gives the fighter expertise in athletics for even better shove/grappling.
 

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