Helpless But Standing

[Water Bob]

One situation that has bugged me for years, through several editions of D&D, is a circumstance where a guard has leveled a crossbow at a prisoner or a thief has snuck up behind a guard and tucked a sharp blade tight up under the guard's chin. I used to call this "getting the drop" on a character. It's a situation that the D&D rules have never handled well.

Why?

In real life, these situations are dangerous. The crossbow could incapaciate, critically wound, or even kill the target. The thief could slit the neck of the guard before the guard could move.

But, in D&D, the weapons do not do enough damage to pose the same risk to all but the lowest level characters.

Looking at the Conan RPG rules (and, thus, the d20 3.5 D&D rules), I think I've found a pleasing solution.

Using a version of the Helpless Defenders rule, consider the victim to be flatfooted, and if the weapon strike hits, it does maximum damage. If a critical hit is made, then the weapon does maxium critical damage. And, this makes it likely that the Massive Damage rule will be used.

I'll call this, the Drop Rule, where one character "has the drop" on another.

Notice in The God in the Bowl, Conan has a healthy respect for Arus, the guard who levels the crossbow at him.

In game terms, I would say that this is because the Drop Rule is in effect.

Thoughts?

 

[Jacob Marley]

Well, that's certainly one solution. I think I'd just use the helpless (see Rules Compendium, page 35) and coup de grace rules and follow the action from there. It seems to me that the rules pretty much already do what you are trying to do.

 

[Empath Negative]

Helpless Defenders
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.

I think Coup de Grace covers it.

 

[Water Bob]

I used those rules as a base, but they don't quite cover what I'm trying to do.

A prisoner walking in front of a guard, the guard holding a cocked crossbow to his back, is not quite covered using the Helpless Defender rule.

First off, that rule removes the target's DEX, reduces it to zero. In effect, the target is AC 5. Damage is normal from ranged weapons.

If you're a prisoner, and you've got 40 hit points, you're not real scared of a single crossbow bolt, even if it is an auto-hit and max damage. You will survive whatever it is you attempt.

But, throw in the chance of dying via Mass Damage, and all of a sudden, that prisoner has more respect for the crossbow (and...there's still a lot of room there for the character to be a hero and overcome the guard).

 

[Empath Negative]

I used those rules as a base, but they don't quite cover what I'm trying to do.

A prisoner walking in front of a guard, the guard holding a cocked crossbow to his back, is not quite covered using the Helpless Defender rule.

First off, that rule removes the target's DEX, reduces it to zero. In effect, the target is AC 5. Damage is normal from ranged weapons.

If you're a prisoner, and you've got 40 hit points, you're not real scared of a single crossbow bolt, even if it is an auto-hit and max damage. You will survive whatever it is you attempt.

But, throw in the chance of dying via Mass Damage, and all of a sudden, that prisoner has more respect for the crossbow (and...there's still a lot of room there for the character to be a hero and overcome the guard).

And the Fortitude Save vs. Death?

"You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die."

 

[Water Bob]

And the Fortitude Save vs. Death?

"You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die."

You're talking about a different rule. I was basing the above on the Helpless Defenders rule. You're citing the Coup De Grace rule.

The CdG rule is a full round action, but I could change that for the Drop Rule.

 

[Empath Negative]

Isn't the CdG a subsection of the Helpless Defender rules?

 

[JamesonCourage]

It's not bad. In my RPG (SRD-based, so 3.5 rules as a base), I use the following maneuver:

Take Hostage [Attack]
You can attempt to ready to deal damage to a creature with a melee attack (or a ranged attack if you’re within 5 feet). If you succeed in dealing lethal damage to an enemy’s hit points, you can decide to deal no damage instead, but can then deal it automatically as long as you use your standard action as a readied action to deal the damage (you transition directly from dealing damage into the “Take Hostage” maneuver, with a readied action to damage the target). If you ever choose to damage the creature, it automatically takes damage from your attack. You can choose to use this maneuver without announcing an intention to use the maneuver beforehand.

It allows you to stop a blow mid strike, with a spear to someone's neck, or to automatically transition from grapple --> free damage with dirk --> take hostage. Works well in my experience.

 

[Water Bob]

A poster on another forum had a good comment--that The Drop Rule should have a range component.

We're thinking a maximum of 15 feet from the target.


I'm also thinking of a simpler tweak. Throw out all the other stuff in the OP, and replace it with these three descriptions of the rule:


1. To have the drop on someone, the attacking character must be within 15 feet of the target when using a ranged weapon.

2. The Drop is only possible when the target is caught flat-footed (as with a guard following a prisoner with a cocked crossbow or a theif that has snuck up on a guard from behind, placing a blade under the guard's chin.)

3. Attack and Damage are carried out normally, but ANY damage cause on the target from the first attack only is considered Massive Damage, and the standard Fort check is made to avoid death.





That seems like a better rule better suited to the job it is supposed to do.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Looks like it should do more then 1d8 damage.

Keep in mind, whenever you consider something like this, you're deviating from the basic damage mechanic. The Assassin PrC has the ability to kill an opponent in a unique manner. Sneak Attacks have been designed to deal extra damage in flat-footed situations. As already mentioned, Coup De Grace is implemented for helpless situations.

I see the specific case you've offered up and I see how it's different then Coup De Grace. My concern is, should a PC be placed in such a precarious scenario where it looks like they cannot twitch or they'll die, it takes away the fact that these guys are HEROES, the kind that really can move faster then the eye can see and turn around an impossible seeming situation. This is what heroes do. This is why in the above picture, while the guy with the bow clearly seems to have the advantage, him trying to fire that arrow allows the defender an attack of opportunity because there's always the slim chance he can avoid the blow and return an attack.

D&D combat is not anything like real life combat. I know you're looking for a mechanic that makes specific situations more fun in gameplay, just be sure not to over complicate the system to where it's difficult for you.