Helpless But Standing

[Empath Negative]

What I'm thinking about is the CdG (and the Helpless Defender) penalty to the target's DEX.

A character that is subject to either the Helpless Defender rule or the CdG version of it is considered to have DEX 0, which gives him a -5 AC. The character gets a further -4 AC against melee, which makes it an automatic hit if you're starting at AC 10.

I can see a prisoner covered by a crossbow to be flatfooted, but I have a harder time thinking the prisoner is DEX 0.




Plus...we're looking at a rule (Helpless Defender and CdG) that is designed for victims that are sleeping or bound to the point that they can't defend themselves.

I would think that a prisoner covered by a crossbow, or even a guard with a knife to this throat, would have a better chance of living through the situation than the unconscious or completely bound fellow.

That's where I've been coming from.

If I have the drop on you... even if you're crazy fast (short of being superhuman like "The Flash") then I'm going to hit ya. Being able to duck and dodge wiggle and weave won't do you that much good if I have the knife to your throat.

 

[Water Bob]

First, the definition of a Helpless Defender does not provide an automatic hit using a regular attack.

It does if you're AC 10. Which is where I was coming from, thinking of someone sleeping or a prisoner covered by a crossbow.

As a houserule, I'd suggest beefing up the coup de grace.

The problem I'm going to have is a Drop rule that is more dangerous than the Helpless Defender and Coup de Grace rule.

Logically, that should be the other way around. The former should be less dangerous than the latter.

If I have the drop on you... even if you're crazy fast (short of being superhuman like "The Flash") then I'm going to hit ya. Being able to duck and dodge wiggle and weave won't do you that much good if I have the knife to your throat.

But...there should be a chance for the victim to elbow you in the ribs, grab your arm, and get out of the hold without getting his throat cut.

It doesn't have to be a very large chance, but I do think a chance is appropriate.

 

[El Mahdi]

It does if you're AC 10. Which is where I was coming from, thinking of someone sleeping or a prisoner covered by a crossbow.

Okay. I get it.

Of course though, if you're using fumbles, you could still miss on a 1...though I'd never let the player live it down.

 

[Empath Negative]

Okay. I get it.

Of course though, if you're using fumbles, you could still miss on a 1...though I'd never let the player live it down.

And heres your elbow to the ribs.

 

[Li Shenron]

If CdG being a FRA seems like a problem for your scenario, allow the following:

Feat: Death Blow

Type: General
Sources: Complete Adventurer (3.5), Sword and Fist (3.0)

You waste no time in dealing with downed foes.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +2, Improved Initiative
Benefit: You can perform a coup de grace attack against a helpless defender as a standard action.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some thoughts here:

Coup de Grace is clearly the mechanism to use.

However, the victim in this sort of case is *NOT* helpless. The reality is that a sufficiently trained person with a gun at their back can escape.

Thus I would say the hostage can do something to escape. Reflex save vs the other guy's initiative modifier (*NOT* their current initiative!) perhaps?

 

[orion90000]

So the dagger to the throat in my opinion would result in 1 of 2 ways.

1) grappled and pinned and then threatened with the dagger.
2) surprised from behind via stealth and then threatened with the dagger.

The first would follow the helpless defender rules. The second would use a little more DM fiat. Either way I would consider the defender to be grappled and helpless so that the defender couldn't just "walk away".

I'm still not sold on the crossbow, I might dodge but get hit in the shoulder and still die from the injury. So, I'm game for allowing an Initiative check here.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

here is the rule that I use for this...

Waylay (Standard action)
At the beginning of an encounter, you may attempt to force one flat-footed opponent to hesitate. You must threaten your opponent if you are using a readied melee weapon, a readied natural weapon, or an unarmed strike. You must be within point blank range if you are using a readied ranged weapon. You make an Intimidate check opposed by the target's modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target's Wisdom modifier + target's modifiers on saves against fear). If you start the Waylay action during a surprise round, you gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check. If your check result equals or exceeds your target's check result, your target must immediately choose to take no action for the round, or choose to be attacked by you. If the target chooses to be attacked, you may make a Coup de Grace against your target as a Free action. If your target chooses to take no action, you may maintain the Waylay from round to round, making another Intimidate check opposed by the target's modified level check each round.