Helpless characters and Reflex saves

[Hypersmurf]

The closest I've found is in the 3.5e DMG Glossary entry for Evasion/Improved Evasion, which implies that such is the case.

Right.

"As with a Reflex save for any creature, you must have room to move in order to evade."

We know that you don't leave your square when making a Reflex save against a fireball, for example, so for a Medium creature, 5'x5' is sufficient room to move. On the other hand, we know from the text of Evasion that anyone who is 'squeezing' does not have 'room to move', and therefore cannot make a Reflex save. A human in a 2.5' tunnel, or an ogre in a 5' corridor, for example.

Now, if you are paralysed, and in a 2.5' tunnel, you can't move at all, so 2.5' is not sufficient 'room to move'. If we put you in a 5'x5' square, you still can't move, so 5' is not sufficient 'room to move'. If we drop you in an empty plain, you still can't move, so the empty space around you is still not 'room to move'... and therefore you cannot evade... as with a Reflex save for any creature.

Someone who is asleep has an effective Dex of 0; 0 Dex means you're paralysed; paralysed means you can't move; hence no Reflex saves.

Whoever wrote the FAQ answer apparently missed the Evasion text.

-Hyp.

 

[rrealm]

Look what I found in the 3.5 FAQ....

Normally, you have to use a light weapon to benefit
from the Weapon Finesse feat. You can also use a rapier or
a spiked chain with Weapon Finesse. You cannot use the
Power Attack feat with a light weapon. Can you use a
spiked chain or a rapier and benefit from both Weapon
Finesse and Power Attack at the same time?

Yes. A rapier or a spiked chain made for a creature of your
size is not a light weapon, even when you’re using the weapon
with the Weapon Finesse feat. If you have both feats and use a
rapier or a spiked chain, you can manage power and finesse in
the same attack. Note that you must take both penalties to gain
the benefits of both feats. For instance, if you decide to take a –
1 penalty on attacks, you can use Weapon Finesse or Power
Attack. Whereas if you take a –2 penalty on attacks, you can
add +1 to your AC and +1 to your damage, or you can add +2
to your AC or your damage.​

Although I do agree with Scion regarding "Just because the faq contains errors does not mean everything in it is in error."

 

[atom crash]

Someone who is asleep has an effective Dex of 0; 0 Dex means you're paralysed; paralysed means you can't move; hence no Reflex saves

While I take issue with the specific wording used here, I agree with the gist of the statement. Logic would suggest that a sleeping character would fail a Reflex save not because he can't move, but because he can't move in order to react and avoid danger.

 

[HeavyG]

I have no problem with sleeping people getting a reflex save in most circumstances.

Let's take a fireball as an example. We know that within the area of any fireball, there will be a location/position combination where the target takes less damage. The presence of the evasion ability in the game even implies that there are areas within every fireballed square were there is no meaningful heat. Thus, there is a statistical chance that a sleeping person happens to be randomly in this position. Of course, this is purely luck-based, but that's no problem because saving throws are already based partially on luck. And you'll need a lot of luck to succeed with an effective dex bonus of -5.

Of course, evasion is another thing.

And there are exceptions. Some saving throws will require that you move (at least a whole 5' in some cases). For instance, a reflex save to avoid a pit trap that is in the process of opening. If you were sleeping on such a trap (10'x10', say), and someone else springs it (say, with a lever in another room), then you couldn't make that save because it would require a movement of at least 5' and you can't move presently.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Although I do agree with Scion regarding "Just because the faq contains errors does not mean everything in it is in error."

No, but it does mean we can say "Just because it's in the FAQ is no guarantee that it's right."

-Hyp.