Hercules in Deities and Demigods

[Glyfair]

Some more info:

Statblocks look like this (when I give an example, I'll use Herc's)

NAME
Classes
Type (i.e. Medium-Size Outsider (Chaotic, Good) )
Divine Rank:
Hit Dice:
Initiative
Speed (Herc is 70 ft)
AC
Attacks
Damage
Face/Reach
Special Attacks
Special Qualities (Herc has Divine Immunities, DR 40/+4 (4/-), fire resistance 25, understand, speak, and read all languages and speak directly to all beings within 15 miles, remote communications, godly realm, teleport without error at will, fast movement, uncanny dodge, SR 37, divine aura (50 ft. DC 22)
Saves: (Herc has Fort +36, Ref +28, Will +26)
Abilities:
Skills:
Feats:
Divine Immunities:
Salient Divine Abilities: (Alter Size, Divine Rage, Divine Weapon Focus (greatclub), Divine Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Indomitable Strength)
Domain Powers: (5/day reroll a die roll once after it is made;5/day feat of strength (+5 enhancement bonus to Str for 1 round)
Spell-Like abilities: (Herc uses his as a 15th level caster, Hermes as 25th level caster)
Possesions (Hercules has the skin of the Nemian lion which is a +10 armor bonus and it reduces damage from piercing and slashing weapons by half)

Other Divine Powers:
Senses:
Portfolio Sense:
Automatic Actions: (Her can use any Str or Dex based skill as a free action if the DC is 15 or lower if he has the skill or it can be used untrained)
Create Magic Items: (Her can creat simple or martial magic weapons and nonwritten items that boost physical abilities as long as the market price is 4,500 gp or less)

Glyfair of Glamis

Glyfair

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: GRRRRRRR

Hi all!

Thanks for the additional info.

Ouch!! Niiice! Heh. Upper Krust will love this, I'd wager...

Indeed, though the more we learn here seemingly the less we know.

If what has been said is true, then the class/level breakdown might only dictate battles between gods, presuming non-divine have a rating of 0. Or perhaps it simply dictates a certain loyalty to a pantheon, as the discretions the head of a pantheon has over his underlings is qualitatively different than what a god excercises over followers, in which case it is possible for a mortal to battle a god with a hope of success but the sworn vassal of Zeus is in some respects less effective in that particular role. This could open the way to an interesting realm of worshiper/divine politics.

The Divine Rank figure is somewhat puzzling; though from an initial glance it seems it must be a physical factor in some capacity.

Physically Hercules and Hermes seem roughly equal yet Hermes is an Intermediate deity while Herc is merely a demideity. So that alone suggests Divine Rank must be a multiplier (?) or bonus (?) in some way.

To make it as simple as a divine trump card would return to making divine combat arbitrary - so I am sure we can rule that out.

Looking at the stats for Hercules I wonder does it affect things like Domain Powers (which Herc can seeminly use 5/day...can Hermes use his powers the same number of times as his Divine Rank?)

My guess is that it also corresponds to things like Divine Rage; Divine Weapon Focus; Divine Weapon Specialisation.

Some more info:

Statblocks look like this (when I give an example, I'll use Herc's)

Have they made a mistake with Hercules Fort saves?

Barbarian 20 (+12); Fighter 20 (+12); Con 38* (+14)

*I'm guessing this based on average hit points adding up to 800.

Shouldn't his Fort be +38?

A few other points.

#1. Does Hercules get 8 attacks/round?

#2. What damage does he do? (1d10+48?)

#3. What Challenge Ratings are attributed to both Herc and Hermes?

#4. Are Avatars mentioned for either?

#5. Out of curiousity what are his Divine Immunities?

 

[kkoie]

I don't know... Hercules, despite his great strength, always seemed like one of the wimpier dieties in the origonal DDG since he was mearly a DemiGod. I'm wondering what the other Gods will be like stat-wise. In any event, how does WoTC's Herc. add up to the Immortal Handbook Converted Herc. Upper-Krust?

K Koie

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: On the topic of heroes

If we are specifically referring to the archaic/classical conception on the heroic figure, let us not forget the political overtones of that view, specifically the Homeric one. Many of these tales represented a condemnation of the feudal institutions that had preceded the dark ages, a time when individual power took stage over that of the community (future polis). Note the tragic overtones in Epic Cycle, in which men of power are continuously brought low. No, there were no 'Good' heroes, specifically because the Greeks did not take much note of the the abstract 'Good' that is being referenced here (Only with Plato, and only at a much later stage). Virtue was always attached to material power relationships.

And, again, this emphasizes that heroes (and heroic tales) reflect the society in which they originate. That's why, even though heroes like Hercules/Herakles may resonate with many cultures and eras, they still have to undergo some changes to suit different places and times.

Regarding mmadsen's statement about Sorbo's Hercules dropping the tragic hero angle, it could be that was a way of going against very recent modern conventions. That is, the troubled hero may have become as cliched as the lantern-jawed flawless heroes of past decades once were, and Sorbo's Hercules was a (most likely unconscious) reaction to this.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey kkoie mate!

In any event, how does WoTC's Herc. add up to the Immortal Handbook Converted Herc. Upper-Krust?

From what I can tell they are pretty much identical (relatively speaking). I may have had Hercs strength a bit higher though and DR and SR slightly lower but overall not much difference between the two interpretations. His Wisdom score does seem a bit high though (38 if I read between the line correctly!?)

Though that said, Hermes is something of a quandary (a mere40th-level Intermediate Deity) but I imagine that has something to do with Divine Rank, hopefully the more people post information the more we can determine its purpose.

 

[CaptainCalico]

regarding Herc

Regarding mmadsen's statement about Sorbo's Hercules dropping the tragic hero angle, it could be that was a way of going against very recent modern conventions. That is, the troubled hero may have become as cliched as the lantern-jawed flawless heroes of past decades once were, and Sorbo's Hercules was a (most likely unconscious) reaction to this.

Oh I think it was very conscious. It was quite refreshing to have the hero actually be a nice, reasonably well-adjusted person after the whole slew of 80's angry, angst-ridden anti-heros. (KS even reffered to Herc as "Minnesota nice" once in an interview. I lived there for a year, and I agree!) Of course they reverted to form with Xena, but that's another thread....

DDG looks very promising!

 

[Glyfair]

Re: Re: Re: GRRRRRRR

Hi all!

Thanks for the additional info.



Have they made a mistake with Hercules Fort saves?

Barbarian 20 (+12); Fighter 20 (+12); Con 38* (+14)

*I'm guessing this based on average hit points adding up to 800.

Shouldn't his Fort be +38?

A few other points.

#1. Does Hercules get 8 attacks/round?

#2. What damage does he do? (1d10+48?)

#3. What Challenge Ratings are attributed to both Herc and Hermes?

#4. Are Avatars mentioned for either?

#5. Out of curiousity what are his Divine Immunities?

His physical stats are Str 55, Dex 25 & Con 28.

His hit points are listed as 20d12+180 (Bbn) plus 20d10+180 (Ftr)

Damage is 1d10+51 with his greatclub (and only 4 attacks) and 1d8+14 with his mighty distance composite longbow.

Hermes & Hera have an avatars, Herc doesn't. No challenge ratings that I notice on this quick go through.

Hercs divine immunities are: Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-effecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation.

BTW, at note on herc says that "As an ascended mortal, Hercules does not have outsider Hit Dice as other members of the pantheon do." There is a lot that can speculated from this (how are other pantheons handled, is it a function of Divine Rank, etc)

Well, I'm running late for work, so ta-ta.


Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Upper_Krust]

Thanks Glyfair (and others)

Hi all!

His physical stats are Str 55, Dex 25 & Con 28.

Excellent*.

*just call me Montgomery Burns.

His hit points are listed as 20d12+180 (Bbn) plus 20d10+180 (Ftr)

Excellent.

I wonder who else had been touting max. hit points for deities for over a year now...

Damage is 1d10+51 with his greatclub (and only 4 attacks) and 1d8+14 with his mighty distance composite longbow.

Excellent.

I have been an advocate of halting attacks at 4 for some time now.

Hermes & Hera have avatars, Herc doesn't.

Excellent.

I don't think Demigods (or less) should be able to have (proper) Avatars anyway.

No challenge ratings that I notice on this quick go through.

Hercules looks about CR 33.

Hercs divine immunities are: Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-effecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation.

That doesn't really leave you much to play with...I would hate to see Zeus' immunities!

In fact to be honest the above list seems a bit preposterous.

BTW, at note on herc says that "As an ascended mortal, Hercules does not have outsider Hit Dice as other members of the pantheon do."

Excellent.

...yes chalk another one up (as any regular to the WPS/IH threads will concur).

There is a lot that can speculated from this (how are other pantheons handled, is it a function of Divine Rank, etc)

Divine Rank is going to be a very important factor I envisage.

Well, I'm running late for work, so ta-ta.

Glyfair of Glamis

Thanks so much!

 

[GravyFingerz]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Glyfair
Hercs divine immunities are: Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind-effecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That doesn't really leave you much to play with...I would hate to see Zeus' immunities!

In fact to be honest the above list seems a bit preposterous.

I dunno, it looks fine to me.

 

[kkoie]

From what I can tell they are pretty much identical (relatively speaking). I may have had Hercs strength a bit higher though and DR and SR slightly lower but overall not much difference between the two interpretations. His Wisdom score does seem a bit high though (38 if I read between the line correctly!?)

Though that said, Hermes is something of a quandary (a mere40th-level Intermediate Deity) but I imagine that has something to do with Divine Rank, hopefully the more people post information the more we can determine its purpose.

Makes me wonder if they might've used some sort of conversion system similar to yours when they were working on the dieties. Time will tell I suppose.

I wonder if Divine Rank might be like a class? The power of the diety (aka number of worshippers) deciding on the Rank or level? We can gather part of that from Herc., Hermes, and Hera. Hera has a higher rank from the other two, and is a more powerful more often worshipped diety, where as Hercules has the lowest of the three, and is more of a tale or legend than he is worshipped as a God. Too bad they don't give us the stats to Zeus or Hades or something, their divine rank would add more insight, like if either of those two had a divine rank of 20, then that would make divine rank sound a lot like a class. Maybe it's the Divine equivilent to an Epic Level? No hitpoints BAB, saves or anything awarded, but a list of powers and immunities etc etc to choose from with each level.

K Koie