Here's a good Toughness House Rule!

[Anubis]

Okay, so by the time you are 20th level you with all four of these feats you have +75 hp, and death door extended by 40. Personally, I think the HPs given area little high. Otherwise I like it.

(snip)

Overall good job. The HPs are a little high on the lesseer feats, by my games are a little toned down powerwise. So, I may be looking at this a little differently then you.

Okay, I can explain that . . .

First off, many classes won't get hte prerequisites for these feats until they're already into Epic Levels due to the Base Fort save requirements . . . Even then, these are precious FEATS we're talkign about here . . . If one takes these feats, that's less of everything else . . .

For Dragon's Toughness, only warriors will be able to get that before Level 20, and clerics, and 75 extra hp for four feats is not an unbeatable combo for those characters by any stretch of the imagination . . . Yeah, fighters have feats to spare, but for everyone else, feats are a rare commodity . . .

As for power, I think many characters would wait until Epic Levels to get these feats, and would be more interested in Immortality later on if given enough time. Wizards and the such would certainly take Toughness, and Fighters MAY spare a few feats to get up the chain a bit, but I doubt the 75-155-255 hp would come into the game before the mid-20s to be honest.

What use is hp if you can't do anythign else?

Anyway, I hope that explains my reasoning a bit better.

Thanks for the compliments!

I only hope someone other than me gets some use out of this.

 

[Anubis]

Have enough prerequites on that feat?

Well it is the end-all beat-all of feats if you ask me. Immortality is delicious. I figured with any less requirements, Immortality would have some SERIOUS balance issues, because the requirements make it nigh-impossible to actually acquire the feat, as it should be.

 

[Grazzt]

Is it retroactive?

Personally, I'm not a big fan of a feat that gives soemthing more every single level.

Feats (by the rules) aren't supposed to do grant something that gets better as you level (or so WotC said in their feat creation article in Dragon..though I have seen them break this "rule" on occassion).

 

[Anubis]

Feats (by the rules) aren't supposed to do grant something that gets better as you level (or so WotC said in their feat creation article in Dragon..though I have seen them break this "rule" on occassion).

Don't worry, I revised by stuff. Read on, my friend, and see the amazi gnew feats!

Actually, read above, or the last page, or something . . . Read further than my initial few posts. It's good, I swear!

 

[Grazzt]

Don't worry, I revised by stuff. Read on, my friend, and see the amazi gnew feats!

Actually, read above, or the last page, or something . . . Read further than my initial few posts. It's good, I swear!

I believe ya my friend...

No need to revise if ya dont want to. Your world, you are THE MAN.

 

[Crothian]

Okay, I can explain that . . .

First off, many classes won't get hte prerequisites for these feats until they're already into Epic Levels due to the Base Fort save requirements . . . Even then, these are precious FEATS we're talkign about here . . . If one takes these feats, that's less of everything else . . .

But that's true for all feats. If I take the feat road to Whirlwind attack, there is less of everything else. Or If I take, run endurance and other so called lesser feats.

For Dragon's Toughness, only warriors will be able to get that before Level 20, and clerics, and 75 extra hp for four feats is not an unbeatable combo for those characters by any stretch of the imagination . . . Yeah, fighters have feats to spare, but for everyone else, feats are a rare commodity . . .

So, you've made a line of feats perfectly fitting for the fighter. They get into combat the most anyway, so I think they have the most to gain by all these extra HPs.

As for power, I think many characters would wait until Epic Levels to get these feats, and would be more interested in Immortality later on if given enough time. Wizards and the such would certainly take Toughness, and Fighters MAY spare a few feats to get up the chain a bit, but I doubt the 75-155-255 hp would come into the game before the mid-20s to be honest.

I think every class would benefit from your toughness, but as it is that wouldn't bea problem. I think fighters more then not would take this line of feats. Remeber Dwarven, Giant, and Dragon toughness are all fighter bonus feats unless you've changed that as well. So, there is much oppurtunity for them to acquire them.

What use is hp if you can't do anythign else?

Anyway, I hope that explains my reasoning a bit better.

Thanks for the compliments!

I only hope someone other than me gets some use out of this.

Low HPs are just something that certain classes learn to deal with. I think you might be taken that disadvantage away.

 

[Anubis]

But that's true for all feats. If I take the feat road to Whirlwind attack, there is less of everything else. Or If I take, run endurance and other so called lesser feats.



So, you've made a line of feats perfectly fitting for the fighter. They get into combat the most anyway, so I think they have the most to gain by all these extra HPs.

In all honestly, I think at least half of all fighters would still prefer the Power Attack line and the Expertise line to this new Toughness line, but at least this makes the Toughness line worthwhile.

I think every class would benefit from your toughness, but as it is that wouldn't bea problem. I think fighters more then not would take this line of feats. Remeber Dwarven, Giant, and Dragon toughness are all fighter bonus feats unless you've changed that as well. So, there is much oppurtunity for them to acquire them.

So THAT'S what the asterisks mean! I see that now! Indeed, for this House Rule to be balanced, NONE of the Toughness feats can be fighter bonus feats! So yes, that is another change. Thank you for pointing that out.

Low HPs are just something that certain classes learn to deal with. I think you might be taken that disadvantage away.

Isn't that the point of some feats? Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, and Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting take away the disadvantage of havig penalties and few attacks with two weapons in exchange for five feats, so I see nothing wrong with spending five to seven feats on eliminating the hp disadvantage, especially considering that the lesser hp classes have SO MANY valuable feats to choose from . . . Not to mention the fact that all of the classes with those lesser hp disadvantages will be in Epic Levels before meeting the Base Fort save prerequisites for these feats to begin with . . .

Basically, the balance is in the prerequisites. The prerequisites are quite strict, really. As it stands, only fighters can take these feats easily and without losing too many valuable feats, and to my knowledge, very few handlers play a fighter their whole career without taking a Prestige Class in the first ten levels, especially Weapon Master.

Anyway, I hope that explains the position a bit better. So what do you think now? Balanced?

 

[Steven McRownt]

I don't want to force people to do the numbers again, but i have a slightly different idea, to have a Toughness feat worthing to benn taken, AND not link it (or at leat directly) with levels.

Here's my idea:

3hp + a number equal to the fortitude save bonus*

*not adjusted with con bonuses or magic or whatever, just the base fort

It is easier, and more real: a fighter might expoit this feat better than a rouge or a wizard, but those guys will have some good bonuses on hp anyway!!!!!

So (new) toughness' range will be 9-15 hp

Dwarf's toughness: 6 + 2xFort **
Giant's toughness 9 + 3xFort **
Dragon's toughness 12+3xFort +Will **

**No retroactive

Steven McRownt

 

[ThomasBJJ]

I always thought the Toughness in PHB was too weak.

I have no opinion on all the Dragons toughness, etc. but here's my fix for the PHB Toughness feat:

2 hit points, and +1 hp/level. Non-retro

That makes it the same power level at 1st level as written in the PHB, but boosts it's usefullness at higher levels, which is where it really pales. Non-retro is a matter of personal tast, I don't think a 10th level fighter should suddenly gain 12 additional hit points overnight. And the character would not suddenly become "tough".

I also liked the way they converted this feat in Never Winter Nights computer game. Though there, you only got +1 hp/level.

 

[Anubis]

Honestly, I think my house rule is perfect. Unless anyone can find ANYTHING wrong . . .