D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class

[Dannyalcatraz]

Logical fallacies only matter if you are trying to prove something is factually correct or not.

An appeal to tradition is a logical fallacy if you are trying to prove that the law of the land should be ____________ because it always has been, and that tradition is to be given legal weight.

Saying that something is a tradition within the game of D&D and it’s product cycle is NOT a logical fallacy, it is a factual statement of the history of the game.

Do you see the distinction?

 

[wingsandsword]

"Appeal to tradition" is a textbook example of a logical fallacy. You can look it up.

It's an appeal to continuity.

The continuity of the game with previous editions, the ability to support existing campaign settings with the game rules, and to let characters translate existing characters into a new edition. When official D&D settings have included it as an integral part, and other settings have consistently referred to it in their lore, it's reasonable to expect that it be officially supported in future editions.

Yes, it's been an optional rule. . .but it's been a rule, and with 2e, 3e and 4e, there was a psionics handbook out within about 2 years of the release of the edition. . .not going on 6 years now. Now there isn't even an optional rule. You can't go out and buy a 5th edition Psionics Handbook. There are a lot of homebrew 5e psionics out there, but no official psion/psionicist class.

That's a lack of continuity that even 4e, with its blatant disrespect for D&D continuity, didn't have.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think a "psion" class is needed for Dark Sun. Dark Sun was based on Gamma World, with the psionic powers (nice and random and weird in 2nd edition) filling in for mutations. The psion class itself was completely broken in 2nd edition, so was not usually allowed, even in Dark Sun.

I suspect when people say "you need a psion for Dark Sun" they are really thinking of 3rd edition Dark Sun, or testosterone fuelled adolescent power trips where the PCs became dragon kings.

Or not. We are thinking of 2e where Psions were commonly played and encountered in Dark Sun. Becoming a dragon or avangion was a bonus that nobody I ever saw or played with actually achieved.

And 2e psionics were not broken. You failed to use your powers a sizable portion of your time, losing half of your powers in the process, and achieved minimal or fumbled attempts 10% of the time. One of my psions accidentally killed himself using the disintegrate ability.

 

[Aldarc]

"Humans are illogical."
-Spock

"HUMANS ARE SUPERIOR!"
~ John Crichton

 

[Maxperson]

I can't speak for Paul's citation, but I can say that in a 2E game that was run at Kublacon 2019, the Psionic character was massively more powerful than the WIzard in the group. Massively.

Then someone was cheating. Even with an 18 in a stat, there is a 20% chance of failure, fumble or minimal success with every use of a power that uses that stat straight. Add in the powers that are stat minus 4 or involve stats that are say 14 to start, and that number skyrockets. Nothing like trying to use a Stat minus 2, starting with a 14 in that key stat. 50% failure, fumble or minimal success on those abilities.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

there was a psionics handbook out within about 2 years of the release of the edition. . .not going on 6 years now. Now there isn't even an optional rule. You can't go out and buy a 5th edition Psionics Handbook. There are a lot of homebrew 5e psionics out there, but no official psion/psionicist class.

That's a lack of continuity that even 4e, with its blatant disrespect for D&D continuity, didn't have.

No. This is not WotC's fault.

IT IS THE COMMUNITY'S FAULT.

WotC trided to make a psionic class. It wasn't perfect, it needed some work, but it much better than the 2nd edition Psion.

IT WAS REJECTED BY THE COMMUNITY.

The difference back then is TSR did not make decisions based on community feedback - if they thought something would make money they printed it. That meant much more output. A lot of it was garbage, or testosterone fuelled munchkin fodder, but there was a lot more produced.

 

[Maxperson]

"Humans are illogical."
-Spock

And a part of D&D. Alignment is tradition at this point. Things are called sacred cows and included in D&D, because tradition. Tradition makes WotC a lot of money.

And since you guys are big into fallacious arguments, calling something a fallacy and then stopping the way @Urriak Uruk did is also a fallacy. You can't counter a fallacious argument by pointing out that it's a fallacy. That's an Argument from Fallacy fallacy.

 

[wingsandsword]

IT IS THE COMMUNITY'S FAULT.

Bull.

WotC could write, playtest, and publish it if they wanted. You're blaming WotC for a failed playtest, years ago? The development cycle for this isn't on the years long scale of a multi-million dollar defense contract. It shouldn't take 3 or 4 years to develop a psionic character class, playtest it, and publish it.

Also, this isn't about TSR's production policies. WotC produced psionics handbooks for 3e and 3.5 and 4e.

The idea that they won't make a psionics handbook because a playtest version was rejected years ago reeks of a giant excuse.

 

[Maxperson]

That fails your "appeal to tradition" test: characters over 20th level where not supported until 3rd edition.

And in 2e and in 1e.

In 1e there was no cap at all and indeed, one module was put out for level 18-100 PCs. That's support. In 2e you had at a MINIMUM, support in the form of the Netheril supplement with people going to 40th level, as well as Dark Sun with PCs able to attain 30th. That's support. 3e had levels with no cap and support with the Epic Handbook. 4e had 30th baked in. BECMI went to 36th level twice, for 72 total levels. 5e is the outlier.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

No. This is not WotC's fault.

IT IS THE COMMUNITY'S FAULT.

WotC trided to make a psionic class. It wasn't perfect, it needed some work, but it much better than the 2nd edition Psion.

IT WAS REJECTED BY THE COMMUNITY.

The difference back then is TSR did not make decisions based on community feedback - if they thought something would make money they printed it. That meant much more output. A lot of it was garbage, or testosterone fuelled munchkin fodder, but there was a lot more produced.

Now hold on a minute there. You're getting real close to holding people accountable for their actions.