D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class

[dave2008]

So you can use the psionic die in place of the component for a NON-PSIONIC spell. That's not a component for psionics. It's a bonus ability psionic PCs have that will allow them to forgo a component for that NON-PSIONIC spell, if they CHOOSE.

Edit: Or put another way, if you are optionally using the die to convert a spell into a psionic ability that then has no components, you have not used a component to use the psionic power. The die is not a component, it is a resource. The power does not say you can use the die as a component to replace the components of the spell. It says you use it to make the ability mental and it then has NO components.

There are only spells, not psionic and non-psionic ones. Notice the new spells do not have a "psionic" tag and that trait doesn't specify non-psionic spells or psionic spells. That is your distinction, not WotC's.
What the mechanic is modeling is that if you have greater psionic energy (the psionic die is a measure of psionic energy) you can disregard the material and somatic components. It states that right in the description. FYI, all psionic subclasses in this UA get a psionic die, so it very much is a feature of psionics in this draft.

I'm pretty sure your just trolling me at this point, so I'm out. Thank you for the discussion though - have a great day and stay safe!

 

[Maxperson]

There are only spells, not psionic and non-psionic ones.

Yes, and all spells are not psionic powers. Not one.

Your proof actually proved MY position on this. Once the sorcerer uses the resource to make a spell into a psionic power, it requires no VSM. Their thinking has not changed. No VMS for psionics.

And I don't troll people. I only troll trolls and you aren't a troll.

 

[Ovinomancer]

@dave2008

@Maxperson is arguing from the position that psionics requires a separate magic system from spells. He's very consistent in this position, but I don't think he's specifically laid it out. As I said earlier, a large part of the acrimony and disagreement on this topic is because we're nominally discussing a class but, in reality, are discussing if psionics must be a separate magic system or not.

 

[Minigiant]

Er, everything at once is generalist, not specialist.

5e ironically has "everything at once" specialists. There are specialist classes that let you pickup all the "roles" via subclasses then spend the rest of their preparation on utility: artificer, bard, sorcerer, warlock.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Maybe as part of either a cleric subclass (e.g., Passion Domain), bard subclass (e.g., College of Soul), or a further psion/mystic subclass (e.g., Empath)?

Empath's would be cool, but I doubt it is something we'd see. They just aren't the type of combat capable archetype to get a full class. They'd be an ability or two at most I think.

Yes, and all spells are not psionic powers. Not one.

Your proof actually proved MY position on this. Once the sorcerer uses the resource to make a spell into a psionic power, it requires no VSM. Their thinking has not changed. No VMS for psionics.

And I don't troll people. I only troll trolls and you aren't a troll.

Hey Max, did you check out the list of spells I provided?

I know, I know, "spells aren't psionic powers so they can't count" but I'm curious other than being "not psionic powers" what ability is missing from that list of spells.

Because frankly, 5e avoids copying abilities if at all possible, so if all of these spells cover the groundwork, then we really need to figure out how to give duplicate abilities without duplicating abilities.

 

[Maxperson]

@dave2008

@Maxperson is arguing from the position that psionics requires a separate magic system from spells. He's very consistent in this position, but I don't think he's specifically laid it out. As I said earlier, a large part of the acrimony and disagreement on this topic is because we're nominally discussing a class but, in reality, are discussing if psionics must be a separate magic system or not.

Close. If they made psionics use mostly the same spells as other classes, but called them powers and they didn't require VSM, that would be consisted with WotC's position in 3e and 5e, as well as TSR in 2e. You can see that position in this new UA where if the Sorcerer uses his power to turn a spell into a power, it loses its VSM.

I don't need a totally new system. It can be magic and use the same spells, and can even be something other than power points, but the spells(powers) should not have VSM.

 

[Aldarc]

Empath's would be cool, but I doubt it is something we'd see. They just aren't the type of combat capable archetype to get a full class. They'd be an ability or two at most I think.

The Empath is a class in that Korranberg Chronicle Psionics link that has been thrown around, and Dreamscarred Press created a psionic healing Vitalist class. Plus there was the Psionic Ardent in 3e and 4e (as a psionic Leader class). Arguably, the emotionally on-edge Wilder class for 3e that could be incorporated in to an Empath. So the ideas are out there for an Empath like subclass.

 

[Maxperson]

Hey Max, did you check out the list of spells I provided?

I did! I agree with your picks for the most part. A few of them I wouldn't have picked, but I can see why you picked them.

Were I to make a Psion class myself, I'd probably use that list as a basis, and then invent some unique "spells" for the Psion's powers.

I know, I know, "spells aren't psionic powers so they can't count" but I'm curious other than being "not psionic powers" what ability is missing from that list of spells.

I'm not sure what you mean by "what ability is missing from that list." It seems like a list of what could be given to Psions as their power list.

Because frankly, 5e avoids copying abilities if at all possible, so if all of these spells cover the groundwork, then we really need to figure out how to give duplicate abilities without duplicating abilities.

Abilities in 5e are different from spell/power lists. A LOT of spells are used by multiple classes.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The Empath is a class in that Korranberg Chronicle Psionics link that has been thrown around, and Dreamscarred Press created a psionic healing Vitalist class. Plus there was the Psionic Ardent in 3e and 4e (as a psionic Leader class). Arguably, the emotionally on-edge Wilder class for 3e that could be incorporated in to an Empath. So the ideas are out there for an Empath like subclass.

I started looking at Korranberg, but that was after I had read Kibble Tasty's psion, and... it was just being made so complex. I found myself just skimming the pdf instead of reading it. While Kibble's actually had me reading it and getting excited for some of the builds.

We might be thinking of different types of Empaths though. For me, "pure" Empaths can't really change people's emotions. they feel them, they feel the emotions of areas or objects, but it is almost all receptive, very little projection. I'd see them as a great investigator style build.

The psychic leader type is also cool, just not where my mind went when I think of Empaths.

I did! I agree with your picks for the most part. A few of them I wouldn't have picked, but I can see why you picked them.

Were I to make a Psion class myself, I'd probably use that list as a basis, and then invent some unique "spells" for the Psion's powers.

I'm not sure what you mean by "what ability is missing from that list." It seems like a list of what could be given to Psions as their power list.

Abilities in 5e are different from spell/power lists. A LOT of spells are used by multiple classes.

Okay, so, let us say we build a chasis that used no VSM, that was the spell list, and we gave them the spell point variant system. Is that approximately 90% of what you want from a psion?

 

[Maxperson]

Okay, so, let us say we build a chasis that used no VSM, that was the spell list, and we gave them the spell point variant system. Is that approximately 90% of what you want from a psion?

More or less. It's probably closer to 75%. I'd want some Psionesque class abilities, and over 20 levels those are probably 25% of the class. And I don't need it to be spell points, but wouldn't mind if it was.