Hero points

[hong]

I'm planning to trial a hero point system in my game this weekend. Here's what I've come up with so far, based on the 3.5E moment of prescience spell.

Everyone gets a base 3 hero points per level.

You can get extra hero points by doing something that's really cool, stylish or dramatic. It can be anything from charging into a dragon's face, staring down a lynch mob, using magnetism to disarm a chain golem, or whatever. As long as it's executed with panache, it's worth a hero point. Basically if everyone's going "WOW", that's a good sign.

You can use a hero point to gain a bonus equal to your level to one d20 roll, or to AC against one attack, or to a save DC. You can use the hero point after the dice are rolled, so (for example) you could convert a miss into a hit, or negate a critical scored on you, or force someone to fail a save. You can only use one hero point per encounter.

There's a limit to how many hero points you can have. I'm thinking a max of 10 points, but it's up in the air.

Also, since hero points are completely metagame, should players know how many hero points they have?

Any comments or suggestions? Has anyone used this sort of mechanic in their D&D game?

 

[anonystu]

This is kind of similar to hero points from arcana unearthed. Let me copy a post from the AU impressions thread


You can do any one of the following things with a hero point:

1. Get a +d20 to any one rolled action.
2. If used on an attack roll that would normally hit you can do double damage or cause a called shot effect.
3. He can take a normal rounds actions outside of the initiative sequence
4. He can use it to gain a +1d20 luck bonus to his AC, saving throw or whatever. If he succeeds he takes no ill effect even if there normally would be a partial one.
5. If used to effect a roll where the character would normally die it instead causes him to suffer a great, debilitating effect.
6. The character can use a hero point to mkae something work in a way the rules do not normally allow (subject to DM interpretation).

It suggests that you be somewhat stingy with hero points. There is also a feat (Born Hero) that lets you start off with a single hero point and encourages the DM to be more generous with hero points for that character.


--
3 means that you get a full round at any time, and don't lose your normal initiative check.

To add to that, 6 are things like tweaking a spell in a way not allowed by a metamagic feat, or basically applying a metamagic feat on the fly (like chaining a one target spell to the rest of the room).

Except for 5, it specifically says that you have to do it before the results are announced, a difference from you.

Either of these (yours or AU's) are fine, although I like the creative feel of the AU system better (especially the act out of order, and avoid dying features). That said, with either system, 3 seems a lot: unless you plan on running really tough, you're going to end up with very low player death, and adding significantly to the cinematic feel of the game (assuming that 3/level is roughly .5-1 per session). This can, of course, be your goal.


Edit: Not letting players know how many they have runs one problem: one of the usual goals of hero point system is to avoid a wacky character death, and if they don't know if they have one, you're going to get wacky character death. I would probably just let them know, but if you want to hide the info, then assign a random amount per level (d3+1 sounds nice) and then let them know when they're down to 1 hero point (such that they know to save it).

Edit^2: use 5 means: you don't die, but instead, you lose an eye, or some other equivalent sort of permanent loss (assuming the party doesn't have access to regeneration-type spells yet)

 

[hong]

Either of these (yours or AU's) are fine, although I like the creative feel of the AU system better (especially the act out of order, and avoid dying features). That said, with either system, 3 seems a lot: unless you plan on running really tough, you're going to end up with very low player death, and adding significantly to the cinematic feel of the game (assuming that 3/level is roughly .5-1 per session). This can, of course, be your goal.

That is, indeed, one of my goals. I think a lot of us are tired of having a death every session in our high-level game.

Another goal is to get a more flashy, fast-flowing feel, like Feng Shui with fireballs (gotta love alliteration). Hence giving out more hero points for dramatic roleplaying. While minis and battlemats have their uses, I'd like to cut down on the wargaming aspect a bit.

Not letting players know how many they have runs one problem: one of the usual goals of hero point system is to avoid wacky character death, and if they don't know if they have one, you're going to get wacky character death. I would probably just let them know, but if you want to hide the info, then assign a random amount per level (d3+1 sounds nice) and then let them know when they're down to 1 hero point (such that they know to save it).

Ah, like a fuel tank gauge. Makes sense.

 

[Derulbaskul]

I have luck points. At the moment it is one per level but I may change that after playtesting to include additional points for really dramatic successes.

IMC, a luck point can be spent to allow a reroll either by yourself, an ally or an opponent. You can spend more than one luck point if you fail. I also allow their use for the rerolling of hit points and for changing your last feat, provided it hasn't be used.

And, in a moment of weakness, I allowed the party's main "tough guy" to go back two rounds after he made a really stupid decision. I don't know if I will allow that again.

So far they're working really well for the three of my four groups who are using them.

Cheers
D

 

[anonystu]

If Feng Shui with fireballs is your goal, and you're running at high level, where the variance is higher, then my recommendation is d3+1 per level, use the "wizard need hero points, badly" fuel gauge, have no upper limit for hero points (just limit it to one hero point per action except for in really special circumstances, and only grabbing the extra round hero point once per initiative cycle), and use the AU hero point rules (which basically are more powerful than yours, and have a more flexible feel), with maybe, if you want to be even more generous, have effect 4: +d20 to AC or save for one attack, be able to be used after the roll (although I don't think this is necessary).

The good thing is that you can adjust the feel of it on the fly: if they're helping the game a lot: give out more, and if you're feel they're getting too abusive, cut back, which will make them a more defensive tool.


Tell us how it goes, whatever you use: I'm interested to see how powerful hero points like this affect a game.

 

[DrSpunj]

Here's what I'm about to introduce in my own campaign. These are compiled from various player's sites, stuff in the House Rules forum and directly from Mutants & Masterminds. I'm interested in what Monte put together for AU (thanks anonystu!) when I get my copy next week.

Hero Points: At the beginning of every session each PC will receive a number of Hero Points equal to their ChaMod (minimum 1). Any Hero Points not used at the end of the session disappear. Hero Points may also be given out directly by the DM for some magnificent act though this will be pretty rare. Hero Points may be used to do any of the following:
· Reroll a die roll: One Hero Point allows you to reroll any die roll you just made and take the better of the two results. If both results are below 10, treat your roll as a 10. You may only reroll once.
· Force a Critical: One Hero Point may be used to turn a naturally rolled threat into a critical hit.
· Overcome injury: If you are disabled, one Hero Point can be used to allow the PC to take a strenuous action for one round without their condition worsening to dying. The PC is still only allowed a Standard Action, and their condition doesn’t improve, they’re just able to overcome the pain and injury for a few moments.
· Stabilize: One Hero Point allows you automatically stabilize and prevent further bleeding. It does not protect the PC from any further damage.

I'm looking to add a few options, and may steal a few from you, hong. I'd like some way to buff your defense with a point, at least. I like your "bonus is equal to character level" mechanic, as with my first option I was looking for some way to give at least a minimum of a bonus. That is, if you spend one of your few Hero points this session to reroll, you should get something better than a "1" on a reroll.

And you'll notice I chose to go with a certain number of points available each session rather than a running total. I've tried a running total before and people kept saving them. I figure if they only get a few each session and they disappear, they're hopefully more likely to get used!

These are still in a bit of flux. Any comments are welcome. Thanks for the ideas!

DrSpunj

 

[Zogg]

I'm not so in favor of hero points. They provide incentives for players to play their PCs a certain way (ie., according to whatever the DM determines to be 'heroic')- and I think players should be rewarded for good RP, heroic or not.

Furthermore it just sounds cheap. "Oh, that ogre would normally have hit and killed me? I think I'll use my hero point to rewind time and up my AC by 7. See....he never even hit me at all. And all because I helped that old lady across the street back in town." = Lame.

 

[hong]

I'm not so in favor of hero points. They provide incentives for players to play their PCs a certain way (ie., according to whatever the DM determines to be 'heroic')

The solution, of course, is to ensure _before the game starts_ that everyone is on the same page in terms of what campaign flavour and style is the desired goal. If everyone wants to play a bright, shining hero and one guy wants to play a skulking, selfish ninja, the skulking, selfish ninja can find another game. Similarly, if everyone wants a dark, angsty, morally ambiguous game and one guy wants to slay monsters and take their treasure, he can find another group to play with. This applies whether or not you're using an explicit metagame mechanic like hero points.

Furthermore it just sounds cheap. "Oh, that ogre would normally have hit and killed me? I think I'll use my hero point to rewind time and up my AC by 7. See....he never even hit me at all. And all because I helped that old lady across the street back in town." = Lame.

Please to stop confusing ingame with metagame.

 

[Zogg]

The solution, of course, is to ensure _before the game starts_ that everyone is on the same page in terms of what campaign flavour and style is the desired goal. If everyone wants to play a bright, shining hero and one guy wants to play a skulking, selfish ninja, the skulking, selfish ninja can find another game. Similarly, if everyone wants a dark, angsty, morally ambiguous game and one guy wants to slay monsters and take their treasure, he can find another group to play with. This applies whether or not you're using an explicit metagame mechanic like hero points.

Interesting. So, just out of curiousity, does the adventuring party ever have disagreements? Do players play their alignment properly? Because realistically even LG and CG characters could easily have trouble getting along...a skulking, selfish ninja is not necessary.

Please to stop confusing ingame with metagame.

The is precisely the problem with hero points...how do you seperate the two? If I'm a player with a hero point in the bank, how can I avoid the parody of thought I presented earlier? I may not actually SAY those words, but I think them. This translates into my PC acting in potentially more dangerous ways (when he's not acting in overtly heroic ways) because he KNOWS he's got a hero point that will reverse any stupid move (or bad roll) he makes.

Furthermore....this hero point system really dilutes the power of the Luck domain, should any cleric happen to take it.

 

[Enkhidu]

I'm not so in favor of hero points. They provide incentives for players to play their PCs a certain way (ie., according to whatever the DM determines to be 'heroic')- and I think players should be rewarded for good RP, heroic or not.

Furthermore it just sounds cheap. "Oh, that ogre would normally have hit and killed me? I think I'll use my hero point to rewind time and up my AC by 7. See....he never even hit me at all. And all because I helped that old lady across the street back in town." = Lame.

You would have hated (or actually did hate) the old Marvel SuperHeroes game from TSR.

Instead of XP, it rewarded Karma, which was basically hero points on speed (usable to boost any particular roll you made). Heroes gained Karma through being heroic, and villians gained it by being, well, villianous. Because it was handed out so freely, it served as the juice that allowed a hero to overcome the unbeatable odds so often found in four-color comics.

Personally, I like hero points as a mechanic, because it allows PCs to really be heroes - overcoming obstacle not meant to be met by mortal men.

Oh, and I agree with Monte - DMs need to be really stingy with them if they want a smooth flowing game with the proper element of danger!