Hero System Vs. Mutants & Masterminds. Which is the better super-hero game?

[Qualidar]

We disagree. Apparently neither of us is able to convince the other of our position. Therefore, I propose that we drop this line of discussion. Continuing further is a pointless waste of time and energy, and presumably increases the frustration level for both of us and anyone who's still reading this thread. (Bless their diligent souls.)

I'm really sort of surprised people put so much effort into it in the first place. Let him think what he wants.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I'm really sort of surprised people put so much effort into it in the first place. Let him think what he wants.

If it were a matter of opinion, it would have been dropped a long time ago. As it is, because he's factually incorrect (as the large majority of people use the word "level-based" in RPGs), folks are scratching their heads and trying to figure out the disconnect.

Now that it's clear he simply has an odd definition of "level-based" and isn't open to conforming that definition to the majority, folks will let it go.

 

[Quantum]

I think what's confusing people here is that D&D is a level progressing system, which M&M is not. They both use levels to describe how powerful a character is, but remember, a 10th level Sorcerer is going to be very different than a PL 10 MAge in M&M.

Also in regards to the differences, in M&M you can have someone be strong enough to lift a 25,000 ton ship on PL 10.

In D&D you are not. Unless you have a Strength score over a thousand. And the sailing vessels are not likely to surpass a few hundred tons.

The largest sailing vessel ever built was the Thomas W. Lawson and she weighed 5,218 GRT / 4,914 NRT.

(Which is Gross RegistryTonange that is based on the total internal volume of a vessel and and Net Register Tonnage is the volume of cargo the vessel can carry). There is no way any character made with the system can lift something that heavy.

 

[pawsplay]

If it were a matter of opinion, it would have been dropped a long time ago. As it is, because he's factually incorrect (as the large majority of people use the word "level-based" in RPGs), folks are scratching their heads and trying to figure out the disconnect.

As the saying goes: You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. The only factually incorrect thing I have stated was when I typed 10 instead of 15. In defending myself against charges of misinformation or distortion, I have resorted to quoting the rulebook at length. If quoting the rules is "factually incorrect," then I guess I'm factually incorrect.

Now that it's clear he simply has an odd definition of "level-based" and isn't open to conforming that definition to the majority, folks will let it go.

Who knows what the conversation would have been like? But since several people decided to prove the unprovable, and behave in an aggressive and insulting fashion, the discussion pretty much got dug into the dirt. Maybe defending myself against untrue accusations was not the most productive response, but I didn't feel ready to just stand back and watch people claim things that actually aren't true (i.e. that's a sidebar, that's an optional rule, that's not how most people play the game, power points are not based on PL, and so forth).

Most likely, anyone else who felt like injecting some balance into this discussion saw the treatment they could expect and just bowed out. The majority of people following this this roiling discussion is probably not the same as the majority of people who had interest in the original subject.

Maybe my interpretation is senseless... but I did not resort to distorting the rulebook text, at least.

To segue back to the OP, Power Level does allow games to be easily scaled up or down, whereas Hero System requires a more comprehensive approach to balance, although the suggestions in the core books are good and easy enough to implement.

 

[pawsplay]

I think what's confusing people here is that D&D is a level progressing system, which M&M is not. They both use levels to describe how powerful a character is, but remember, a 10th level Sorcerer is going to be very different than a PL 10 MAge in M&M.

Also in regards to the differences, in M&M you can have someone be strong enough to lift a 25,000 ton ship on PL 10.

In D&D you are not. Unless you have a Strength score over a thousand. And the sailing vessels are not likely to surpass a few hundred tons.

The largest sailing vessel ever built was the Thomas W. Lawson and she weighed 5,218 GRT / 4,914 NRT.

(Which is Gross RegistryTonange that is based on the total internal volume of a vessel and and Net Register Tonnage is the volume of cargo the vessel can carry). There is no way any character made with the system can lift something that heavy.

Actually, I'm pretty you can carry 25,000 tons as a heavy load with a Strength under 110.

 

[Quantum]

Thanks, but I'm not really thinking heavy load. I believe they are different things in the two games as well.

But the point still stands.

 

[Stacie GmrGrl]

I propose that we all play and enjoy the games we like and however we interpret these games, as we all see it, is the correct view for each individual person. So, two people may not agree, but that doesn't mean that one or the other is wrong. Just two sides to the coin, but both are right.

Now we can all get along, sing kum-ba-yah, make some smores over a campfire, and play a game of BASH: UE, which is better than both M&M and HERO system so there

 

[ValhallaGH]

I believe they are different things in the two games as well.

Then you're incorrect.

The carrying capacity tables for 3.0 D&D and Mutants and Masterminds are exactly the same. The load progression formulas are exactly the same. M&M was courteous enough to throw up a second table that contains common values possible via the Super-Strength power, and that's all the difference.

Whatever strength you need to do something in M&M is the same as the strength required in 3.x D&D. So, a Strength 390 D&D fighter (with flight boots) could push around an Earth-sized planet. He'd do so at 5 ft per round, but he can do it. At Strength 405 he can pull an Atlas and lift an Earth-sized planet over his head.

 

[Quantum]

I propose that we all play and enjoy the games we like and however we interpret these games, as we all see it, is the correct view for each individual person. So, two people may not agree, but that doesn't mean that one or the other is wrong. Just two sides to the coin, but both are right.

Now we can all get along, sing kum-ba-yah, make some smores over a campfire, and play a game of BASH: UE, which is better than both M&M and HERO system so there

No, being right is serious business. And as for me, I'm not really interested in learning new rpg systems anymore. I've been playing since 1980 and am just frustrated that once you learn the official rules it all has to change again because some people aren't satisfied with them and have to make a big stink.

After all, being right shows that I care more about rules than anybody else, and that's what it's all about.



And VHG is right, the carrying capacity tables are the same for both books.

But I still can't find this alleged formula for how they determined what the carrying capacity is.

 

[ValhallaGH]

But I still can't find this alleged formula for how they determined what the carrying capacity is.

I didn't mean to imply that the entire table was formulaic. But once the base values (i.e. Strength 10 and all values within 4 points of it) were established, the increases are extremely formulaic.

Every +5 strength is x2 capacity. +10 is x4, and +40 is x256. You just need the base capacities listed for Strength's 1 to 14 and you're good. And no, I don't know why the designers don't follow the formula for strength scores between 1 and 14.