Heroes of Neverwinter as 5e Preview?

[ashockney]

This sounds similar to the melee classes (ie. slayer, fighter, rogue) in the 4E Essentials "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" book.

More generally, how do the spellcaster at-wills function?

For example, does the wizard have an at-will magic missile which always hits?

Great point ggroy, I hadn't thought of that! It is more simpler a version like HoFL. The wizard has a ranged attack (crossbow) and an at will of magic missile (no choice) at the beginning. They will also likely get a racial at will, and can choose from one additional at will from between shield (AC buff) and Acid Arrow (which is a AoE + DoT).

 

[hopeless]

Interesting idea, been playing it and have 3 characters none of whom are 10th and of late haven't been playing it as much as I did a month or so ago.
If true it would at least have the merit of those who've played the facebook game will now the weaknesses of the new edition and those dming it can adjust accordingly (potions availability and pitiful low treasure to cover the cost of hiring npcs and items tat you can't use until you gain a level because you've recruited a higher level character from a friend).
Somehow I can't see us being that lucky that they've the foresight to think of such a method of playtesting a new edition though!
Nice idea though!

 

[hopeless]

Oh a minor point.

RangerWickett - it's great to hear from you! Thanks for chiming in. I'm hoping to spark some interest and thought around the topic.

Wycen - excellent feedback, and I thank you for your thoughts. As to your point about socialization, have you found the ability to play with your friends? It took me a while to find it, they didn't do a good job of explaining it.
Step 1 - invite your friends on FB, they will show up at the bottom
Step 2 - you can give your friends gifts when you visit their house (1/day)

Sorry for the interrupt but next to where your friends portrait at the bottom of the screen to the right is a section that allows you to gift not only them and also others as part of an invitation routine they've set up to get more people playing their game.

So thats potentially two gifts per friend and if they're willing enough they can send you 2 gifts too each.

However visiting their house and tapping their chest has an occasional bonus of a potion of life or raise dead every so often since otherwise it costs quite a bit of astral diamonds tp urchase in game.

Oh and if your character is killed or an npc you still have the option of returning to Neverwinter or leaving that character dead but if its your character you won't be able to access any chests from that point I believe.

 

[ggroy]

In the case of melee classes, how do the encounter powers function?

Are they similar to the stances (for fighters) and tricks (for rogues) from the 4E Essentials HotFL, which are minor actions activated to "add on" to the basic melee or ranged attack or moves?

 

[hopeless]

Update

This sounds similar to the melee classes (ie. slayer, fighter, rogue) in the 4E Essentials "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" book.


(I have not played Heroes of Neverwinter yet).

More generally, how do the spellcaster at-wills function?

For example, does the wizard have an at-will magic missile which always hits?

Nope these are roll to hit like other attacks, make sure your cleric has their holy symbol since healing is reduced without it as I found out after equipping a morningstar and only realising in play that its two handed and only tonight did I find a replacement weapon to swap it out for (Moradin's Will as its called!)

And attacks that stun, daze and knock foes prone and very useful especially after fighting 3 ogres and very, very lucky that i managed to deal with them before it got ugly!

 

[ashockney]

Welcome to the discussion hopeless! Thanks for your thoughts and insights to the game. I played a fighter and wizard, so I wasn't aware of that difference about the cleric's holy symbol. I've not branched into using the "post to your wall" method, because I didn't want to burden the majority of my friends who are non-gamers. Good insight, though! I agree this would be an interesting way to playtest some "basics" of a new edition. The game can easily grant a "broader" appeal to folks that don't play D&D, but the quality lacks a little to spice it up to that level of an appeal. I think they would love nothing more at WoTC than to simplify the game in a way that it would appeal easily to a new generation of gamers with short attention spans and MANY alternatives.

[MENTION=83805]ggroy[/MENTION] -The way powers work is more a balancing act between 1W/2W/3W damage and condition or area of effect. More damage, single target. Less damage can add conditions or multiple targets. The most powerful powers do both. The wizard's ice storm at 10th does a 5x5 blast AoE, reasonable damage, and can sting you with a slowed or dazed condition.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

So, let's pretend for a second that the Facebook game is a preview of 5e. If you'd like to criticize the theory, please go hit the "New Thread" button. I'd like to see what we could learn about D&D and gaming if HoN was a preview of 5e.

I've played a character to 10th, so I've seen more than 80% of the span of heroic tier. There are definitely some interesting insights.

Healing - everyone but fighters lose second wind, and the baseline for healing is now the ADVENTURE not the encounter. Clerics are the only healers. The 4e "attrition" of hp carries through, but the average damage done to the party drops significantly, so healing is a mitigation to try to get into the last encounter (usually a boss) with max hp. You can still survive if you don't, but it makes it much harder.

I personally don't believe it's a preview of 5e (so I should probably be in another thread), but even if it were so, many of the changes could have been made due to this being a video game rather than a tabletop game.

IMO, attritional hp loss is a bad idea, as it heavily promotes the 15 minute adventuring day. It makes it harder for PCs to be challenged in equal-leveled encounters, although it still has the attritional effect of losing healing surges.

Powers - 4e theme carries through for powers. You have way, way less choices however, all but eliminating dailys except for second wind. At wills are reduced to one melee and one ranged attack.

Is this one of each per class, or do you choose (but have max of two at-wills)?

All the rest of your powers are usable once per encounter. You never have more than 10 to choose from - simple.

Can I assume you mean each class has only 10 powers, or that a 10th-level character has only 10 powers? Because if it's the latter, it's not really different from 4e, other than having fewer at-wills. (4e characters don't even gain a power per level, although they come close to it.)

Of note, only the rogue can buff offense.

I take this to mean supporting the striker role. Does the game have a ranger?

Only the cleric and fighter can buff hp.

More detail. I assume the fighter can only buff its own hp (how? Healing? Temp hp?) while the cleric can buff anyone's. But I can't tell from this description.

Thieves are the only ones who get the "disarm" and "unlock" powers.

This one makes sense. No one but a rogue (or wizard, maybe) is likely to have "Thievery" as a class skill anyway.

Movement and position - simplified and pretty straightforward. Combat advantage just requires any two attackers on one defender - simple. Powers that buff movement are simple - available to rogues, wizards, fighters, and eladrin, simply add to a movement once an encounter when you need it. Comes in handy in almost ANY encounter. The cover/concealment is GONE. If you've got cover - the blast/attack is blocked, period. You want to hit the dude, move to get a direct line of sight. Much simpler.

Now this is interesting. Cover and concealment are only -2 debuffs in 4e, which is pretty lame.

Magic Items - Less slots (six), less to track. You can get a new magic item pretty much every level. Everyone can benefit from each slot. There is one slot that's "super rare" and difficult to fill - rings. To me, this made the magic seem magic again. STRIVING to obtain that last slot...Looking for each upgrade, there was always one in reach through purchase, reward, AND adventure. Split them up to make them all valuable. Magic items no longer give powers - simple. They all add a bonus. The high-end heroic tier items add a secondary bonus (ie, sword +2, +3 vs beasts).

To me, this is more of a negative than a positive. I don't want to go crawling looking for rings, reminds me of Angband or Diablo (in a bad way).

Six slots isn't that "few"; in 4e, while there are more slots, you only need to fill three (weapon/implement, armor and neck).

Potions and Trinkets - pulled away from magic, these are available from level 1 and are all purchasable, but they are the most expensive. You need to use them sparingly. Food, salves, backpacks, kits, potions, glyphs. They all buff for an encounter or an adventure. The glyphs are game-breakers, but super expensive - in gameplay terms, I'm thinking "artifact".

Not counting glyphs, that sounds too powerful. A potion buffs for a whole adventure? Does a healing potion = regeneration potion?

Adventure Building - When you complete heroic tier, you can complete the build out of adventures. There are simple, basic templates to build upon. You can play your "secondary" characters through these adventures, and run your friends. I don't want to overlook this. It both simplifies the role of the DM, as well as encourages a share responsibility of creating adventures. Adding a layer of difficulty by allowing for a simple "build up" tool with HARD and HEROIC tiers of complexity. One simple math shift to add that extra bit of challenge to an adventure - simple.

That is really cool. There's lots of talk of "adjustable dials", but those tools, regardless of which edition they're for, aren't out yet.

Treasure, Rewards, and Achievements - loads, and loads of treasure. Darn near every room, and rewards from each adventure - should you succeed. Sharing rewards with other players - face it, this is a SOCIAL game. It's COOL to get advantages from your crew. It's an excellent framework for a simple, fulfilling, and consistent rewards system. Homerun!

As above, I'm not a huge fan of treasure. To me, kicking butt and stopping the villain's plot is the reward. In a regular game, I just want to fill my three slots and maybe some healing potions. In an inherent bonus game, it's just potions, which you can buy rather than scrounge for. Looking for "plot" is cooler than looking for loot.

Monster mechanics - There is a clear architecture to filling an adventure. There is a delicate balance to number of villians, that leans much more heavily on minions.

Do they have wandering monsters or any suggestions for countering the 15 minute adventuring day?

Solos don't get a million actions but are still very challenging because of their AoE and triggered attacks.

Triggered attacks are a valid way of giving solos more actions. This doesn't sound very different from 4e. Can they resist "action loss?"

Monster's most deadly effects are "triggered" effects from bloodied and and dying conditions.

PCs tend to be deadliest at the beginning of an encounter, monsters at the end. Cool.

Secondary benefits - simplify, simplify, and simplify again, so what do you get? A MUCH faster game. You could likely complete an adventure at the table in an hour if you're good, and not more than two for most groups. Easy portability to multiple game formats - tabletop, card, computer, facebook.

Given all the complaints about how hard it is to build a character, and how long rounds take, this can't hurt.

A simpler infrastructure introduced something we haven't seen in three editions - PLAYING TOGETHER THROUGH THE TIER AT ALL LEVELS. That's right, you could easily piece together any party of four characters from levels 1-10 and pick a "representative" adventure that can still pose a challenge to any party using the simple adventure building mechanics.

I'm not sure this is a good idea. That can't be balanced, even if you can set an appropriate encounter level per encounter. The low-level guy is going to feel shafted; I see no reason to encourage that.

Re-opening the door for - austere and EARNED rewards.

Now I'm confused. From previous points, it seems this is Monte Haul. Are you suggesting you could run the same adventure twice, once austere and once Monte Haul?

Have you played Heroes of Neverwinter? What did you think of the game?

No.

Could these simpler elements translate to a TRPG?

Yes, but I suspect the motivation was a computer can't handle the complexity of a TRPG.

Can we survive with simpler? Would our games benefit from it?

I believe that was the point of Essentials. Different strokes...

 

[ggroy]

Are there any classes which resemble a "tank" which soaks up lots of damage?

If so, do they have any abilities like marking (like the original Heinsoo 4E fighter) or the defender's aura (like the 4E Essentials knight)?

 

[ashockney]

Are there any classes which resemble a "tank" which soaks up lots of damage?

If so, do they have any abilities like marking (like the original Heinsoo 4E fighter) or the defender's aura (like the 4E Essentials knight)?

[MENTION=83805]ggroy[/MENTION] - the fighter is the clear tank

The tank can soak up damage with more hit points than other characters, and also are the ONLY class to have their own second wind, and boundless endurance is a healing buff through regeneration.

There are NO marking effects. The game seems to automate monsters as attacking the weakest opponent in range. Because most encounters begin with some distance, this can be played by moving your "tank" out first to position him in front of the monsters. If they all have range from weapons or movement, they are coming en masse after whoever has lowest hit points in an effort to take them out.

 

[ashockney]

(Psi)SeveredHead welcome to the conversation! Thanks for not beating the horse on the computer game not being the TRPG. I completely agree this is obviously a simpler format for FB and for computer game. But that's not the point. What if, just IF, it's informing a new paradigm? It's an interesting thought.

One of each at will per class.
Thief - Sly Flourish/Basic Ranged Attack (Striker)
Fighter - Steel Serpent Strike/Basic Ranged Attack (Defender)
Cleric - Righteous Might/Basic Ranged Attack (Leader)
Wizard - Magic Missile/Basic Ranged Attack (Controller)

With basic attacks, at-wills, encounter, utility, daily's and magic items all added together by 10th level, most PC's have a LOT more than 10 options. At 10th in HoN it is 10, exactly. All in. You can pick from 19 or so different powers to get your 10, giving you a little customization.

The buffs that would last the adventure are typically resist effects. Most potions and trinkets only have a "one time" or "one encounter" effect when triggered.

The 15 minute adventuring day! I forgot about that one. File away as a "secondary" benefit of this format. Everyone has encounter powers. 15 min adventuring day is TOTALLY gone, you can game, and game, and game, it all resets with EACH room/encounter. I left it out, but they have an energy component in HoN that needs to recharge before you can start your next adventure. Energy seems like something totally pointed at a CRPG. No random/wandering encounters. This is a GOOD call out, at least insofar as it would add value to a story.

Out of curiosity, did you play in the 1e days? I did, and it was different then. You had very little access to magic items. Making them more rare made them more magical. You played to SURVIVE, and if you did, you kept what you earned. If you died, it was the end of the world, you had to start over, but you could still game with your friends who were higher level and had more stuff. The difference between 1, 3, 6, 10 was CLEARLY noticeable, but wasn't THAT BIG of a deal. It created an "air" that was more austere, and you really had to EARN everything you got. It's all kind of the OPPOSITE of Monte Haul stuff. If you had a party of a 4th, 2nd, 2nd, and 1st level characters, it was not "Monte Haul" to have a 4th along with you on the adventure. Was he better? A little. BUT you would NEED it because you could face more difficult challenges and a few bad dice rolls were tough to overcome. That level 4 character had EARNED every stripe, XP, and magic item he had access to, in the meantime.