Heroes of Virtue article

[Nemesis Destiny]

This series turned out to be hit and miss for me.

I wasn't particularly interested in Chevalier in the first place, but even so, it seemed very 'meh' to me. It could work for some concepts though, I suppose.

Guardian did everything I was hoping it would, more or less. It is absolutely perfect for the flavour I intended to go for with the character I'd intended this theme for. It works really well for a defender, or as in my case, a leader off-tank defender wannabe.

The hospitaler is decent enough, though I found that he mechanics and flavour were a little too narrow, especially concerning the use I'd hoped to put it to. I particularly liked the level 6 utility though, and the level 10 is pretty potent as well.

Noble was really disappointing. The abilities and features felt really underpowered and did little to support the feel of a noble that is actually, you know, noble. This theme just smacks of 'some jerk that thinks he's better than you,' which while it might be a historically accurate representation, has an unfortunately narrow concept.

That said, these at least give me a good jumping-off point for modifying these and other themes to suit whatever use I plan to put them to.

 

[Badwe]

Did anyone actually read the flavor text on the noble? Perhaps it is me reading from a DMs perspective rather than a player perspective, but to me the Noble seemed like a theme with a lot of potential. Granted, it is all open-ended and not perfectly contained within the rules, which can certainly be problematic, but in the right player's hands this theme could be a great catalyst to trying solutions to RP situations that otherwise would have been impossible.

I will agree that the actual mechanics are rather weak, but I think the way they have constructed these general purpose themes they work best when their flavor is firing on all cylinders rather than the abilities.

The Chevalier... i thought it was odd that it keyed off of mounts from level 1 without providing easier access to mounts as well. Even giving the DM some tips for making sure they had a mount at level 1 would have helped. Basically, if you have a character concept where you would take mounted combat at level 1, this theme might offer you a way to define yourself more thoroughly as a mounted combatent.

Overall, while the themes weren't nearly as excited as I was expecting, I think they were right to keep the power level low to start. Knowing how potent the dark sun themes and knowing that these themes could potentially end up in LFR or even appear suddenly in ongoing games, they needed to stick to things that are predominantly driven by flavor and not super-potent mechanics. We still have the neverwinter campaign setting that is likely to produce some themes that are A) more powerful and B) more likely to be usable in a standard D&D campaign.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

At your suggestion, I re-read the flavour text. It read better the second time, but I still thought that the powers and features were weak - especially the 'get an item' one at 5th level. It's terrible. In 5 levels you won't even remember that you had it. Perhaps if it scaled somehow, but as written, it and the similar feature from the Apprentice theme, are just plain awful.

And I fully agree with you regarding the chevalier. They should have been granted a mount at 1st level, and it should have had some tacked on scaling (because as they are mounts don't scale at all).

 

[Neverfate]

At your suggestion, I re-read the flavour text. It read better the second time, but I still thought that the powers and features were weak - especially the 'get an item' one at 5th level. It's terrible. In 5 levels you won't even remember that you had it. Perhaps if it scaled somehow, but as written, it and the similar feature from the Apprentice theme, are just plain awful.

And I fully agree with you regarding the chevalier. They should have been granted a mount at 1st level, and it should have had some tacked on scaling (because as they are mounts don't scale at all).

What I find most troubling in the creation of these themes is that several, not just one, but multple themes involve or are even based on ADMITTEDLY (whether by the community or WotC themsevles) weaker aspect of the rules!

Item Rarity? Even WotC said to ignore it.
Animal Companions. Scaling?
Mounts. Scaling?
Consumables. Enjoy not hitting/not having money (thank Sehanine you could create a free consumable in that one)

I don't mind them trying to go new directions with themes, but for your first initial set, I'd base them on things that might not be totally different next month/year because they don't work at all. It just seems a lot of awful choices were made here.

 

[Badwe]

The weakness sort of highlights why this didn't make it to print. I don't think these could have worked in print, but they seem reasonable in dragon. Admittedly, they feel more like an unearthed arcana article than actual new options.

The themes that grant items definitely cements that themes live in the heroic tier and will slowly fade out in importance compared to paragon paths, which are much more mechanically robust.

But yes, these are clearly not something easy and out of the box you can just plop in, which puts their potential for LFR in jeapordy. Also, if these were available in 2008 when I first started DMing, I would have had no idea what to do with them. They are very open-ended and the PCs would likely have been more ambitious with the flavor text than I would have been able to adjucate. So I would say they are not very good for a DM just getting started out, who needs simple PCs and simple, hack and slash adventure.

However, 3 years of DMing later, I am intrigued by the level of commitment these particular themes offer. Now, this is highly situation, I'm at a point in the arc of my growth as a DM where I am trying to imagine rules and ideas that I can give to my PCs that will spur them to think outside of their character sheet, and the stuff written about, for example, the noble, is the kind of stuff that would fit well with that. Perhaps, then, I'm a bit biased towards liking these when they are somewhat lacking in universal appeal.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Look at thmes like racs and now it makes sense... racial features, especially racial utilities are not all equal in power...

what i think that´s strange is, that the chevalier does not get mounted combat for free... could it be, that mounted combat as a feat has lost any benefit?

Can you use mount powers without it now?

The use acrobatics and athletics check from mount or rider seems like the last benefit of the mounted combat feat is replaced by the chevalier feature...

 

[Oldtimer]

Are themes retrainable? I don't think that's something I'd allow any more than I'd allow race or class to be retrained, were I designing it.

While I agree with your design choice, it seems they are:

Your character might discover a different calling at some point in his or her career and wish to change one theme for another. If you have no powers or feats that use your theme as a prerequisite other than the theme's granted power, you can retrain your theme choice when you gain a level, losing your first theme's granted power and gaining the new one's granted power.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

By extension, if you still have the benefit of the granted item, you would not be able to retrain the theme - in the case of the noble, you would have to "give back" the item (not sell it!). Not sure how it would work with the Apprentice. In any case, the DM is fully within rights to step around the retraining issue by a player trying to "game" a free item (or the profits of selling one) by just disallowing the retrain until the item and / or all monies associated have been given back.

If they sold it and can't otherwise give it back, a cash donation to a worthy cause equal to the item's value should suffice.

 

[Obryn]

what i think that´s strange is, that the chevalier does not get mounted combat for free... could it be, that mounted combat as a feat has lost any benefit?

Can you use mount powers without it now?

That seems to be the case, near as I can tell. The Essentials books say nothing about the Mounted Combat feat, either in the Monster Vault or in the glossary or in the Rules Compendium.

-O

 

[catsclaw227]

Are themes retrainable? I don't think that's something I'd allow any more than I'd allow race or class to be retrained, were I designing it.

The article says to reference the Heroes if Nature and Lore for rules on how to use them.

A character can have only one theme, which you can choose when you create your character. The theme you select grants the benefits described below. You don’t have to select a character theme if you don’t want to. Also, you can hold off on selecting a theme, but most themes represent your unique background or origin as an adventurer, and they work well for 1stlevel adventurers.

Emphasis mine. By RAW, you can, but it appears as though it is preferred if it's chose at level 1. If a DM wants to house-rule this preference into a requirement in their campaign, I see no problem with that.