HeroLab

[labyrinth]

It is nasty because not every computer is hooked to the internet - laptops in particular. And laptops are what are most likely to appear at a games table.

Er, you did notice that I said you do NOT need to hook your computer directly to the internet to activate the license, right?

It is nasty because people do not want to jump through hoops to use software they have purchased. It is nasty because if your hard drive crashes you need to jump through the hoops again just to use software that you have purchased.

I've been using Army Builder for many years. About a year ago, I lost my system to a disk crash. Restoring Army Builder was one of the easiest things to re-install. I did NOT have to go dig up the CD or the license number. I just downloaded AB from their website, then I used an option on the menu to have them email me my licenses, which arrived about 60 seconds later (just like having a forum send you your password). I then went through the license activation wizard in 30 seconds and was good to go. I just wish many of the other software products I had to re-install were as painless and easy.

As for 'no different than a 'major upgrade every three or four years' I can name one major difference - this is on top of 'upgrading' from Army Builder 2 to Army Builder 3. We do not know yet if they will have another upgrade, but that is what I am betting on.

You can bet as you like, but the improvements added in V3.1 were huge, and those definitely count in my book. From talking to people from Lone Wolf at GenCon last summer, they have some similarly cool stuff planned for a V3.2 update that is supposed to happen sometime this year.

Everyone I play miniatures games with uses Army Builder because it's a great tool. Every formal tournament I play in REQUIRES the use of Army Builder because the organizers believe it's a great tool. You can make your own decisions, but there appear to be a huge number of people out there that view Army Builder as worth the investment.

Bringing this back to the topic of the thread, the way Hero Lab works is much different from Army Builder. There is no license extension model for Hero Lab. So you buy it once and you're done. The only "problem" (as you view it) is that users need to spend 60 seconds activating the license when they install the product. I'll happily "throw away" 60 seconds of my life doing that for all the time savings I gain using the product.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Er, you did notice that I said you do NOT need to hook your computer directly to the internet to activate the license, right?

From the Hero Labs licensing info -
When you purchase Hero Lab, you are issued a unique license number. This license number can be used to unlock the product on a SINGLE computer of your choice. Completing the licensing wizard within Hero Lab binds the product to the computer on which the license is installed. The wizard is accessed via the "Activate License" option under the "License" menu within the product. Licensing is accomplished via a key file that the wizard retrieves from our servers and installs on your computer. This key file is uniquely tied to both your license and your computer, so it cannot be used with a different license or on a different computer.

So yes, you do indeed need to link to the Lone Wolf servers via the internet.

The 'improvements' made to AB3 were not worth buying a new version, let alone renewing the license every year.

The Auld Grump

 

[labyrinth]

So yes, you do indeed need to link to the Lone Wolf servers via the internet.

Man, you sure have an axe to grind. And you also don't seem interested in fully reading a post that you already know you'll disagree with.

I said two things in my post about the Hero Lab licensing:
(a) that users DO need to activate the license (see the last sentence)
(b) that a DIRECT internet connection is NOT required (what you quoted)

So then you quoted my comment about a DIRECT connection and "refuted it" by saying something I had never disputed.

If you intended to refute the statement you actually quoted, I just spent two minutes doing the entire license activation process WITHOUT the use of a direct internet connection. On my laptop, I ran the manual wizard. Upon completion, a file was saved on my computer. I copied it to a memory stick. I then went to my desktop machine, launched my browser, and went to the webpage the wizard told me to use. I uploaded the file from my memory stick and was given back the keyfile, which again went onto the memory stick. I copied that file to my laptop. I re-launched Hero Lab and it all worked perfectly.

You can continue to believe whatever you wish. I just feel obligated to point out incorrect information so that others have accurate data.

As for your views on Army Builder, it's a free country. Everywhere I go, Army Builder is considered an invaluable resource and the "industry standard". For a simplified game like Warmachine, I'm not sure how valuable Army Builder would be compared to a freeware tool, and your group has obviously made the best choice for its needs. I do know that no other tool comes close to AB for games like 40K, WFB, FoW, Confrontation, and a host of others.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Man, you sure have an axe to grind. And you also don't seem interested in fully reading a post that you already know you'll disagree with.

I said two things in my post about the Hero Lab licensing:
(a) that users DO need to activate the license (see the last sentence)
(b) that a DIRECT internet connection is NOT required (what you quoted)

So then you quoted my comment about a DIRECT connection and "refuted it" by saying something I had never disputed.

If you intended to refute the statement you actually quoted, I just spent two minutes doing the entire license activation process WITHOUT the use of a direct internet connection. On my laptop, I ran the manual wizard. Upon completion, a file was saved on my computer. I copied it to a memory stick. I then went to my desktop machine, launched my browser, and went to the webpage the wizard told me to use. I uploaded the file from my memory stick and was given back the keyfile, which again went onto the memory stick. I copied that file to my laptop. I re-launched Hero Lab and it all worked perfectly.

You can continue to believe whatever you wish. I just feel obligated to point out incorrect information so that others have accurate data.

As for your views on Army Builder, it's a free country. Everywhere I go, Army Builder is considered an invaluable resource and the "industry standard". For a simplified game like Warmachine, I'm not sure how valuable Army Builder would be compared to a freeware tool, and your group has obviously made the best choice for its needs. I do know that no other tool comes close to AB for games like 40K, WFB, FoW, Confrontation, and a host of others.

And you call that process 'not jumping through hoops'? Sorry, but the hoops are up, and you jumped through them. You may have thought the process worth the trouble, but you did indeed have to go through steps that should not have been necessary. Nor do all laptops have USB ports (though most do these days). For that matter, the computer at my old job did not have a USB port either. (Great printer, lousy computer... still running Win 98 last I heard.) I may have an axe to grind, but you are far too forgiving.

As for tools for 40K and WFB I still find AB 2 works just fine - I have nothing against the programs themselves, it is the licensing that I object to, and at least locally I am in the majority on that one. AB 2 does indeed work very well. While I have only tried the demo version of AB3 it did not seem so much better that I would pay again every year to keep it up to date.

Lone Wolf is not the only company that has annoyed me with such licensing, though at least they were honest about it on their website. I got burned before, and ditched the program (a desktop publishing and graphics suite) with great speed, returning it to the store the next day, and unlike Lone Wolf they did not have the courtesy to mention the internet requirement or licensing in their advertising.

So yes, part of this is bitterness towards licensed as opposed to purchased software. Another part of it is that I was really looking forward to AB3 until they announced their licensing. I would have purchased it immediately if they had not done that. I doubt that I am alone in this regard, and suspect that Lone Wolf is hurting their own sales by at least as much as the piracy would have. Even WotC eventually decided that they lost too many sales due to DRM protection over on Drive Thru RPG. This is just another form of DRM.

Heck, in spite of my annoyance with Lone Wolf I do still use AB2 for WH40K, Mordheim, and WHFB, and if they dropped the licensing I would buy AB3, but if and until then the program can remain on the virtual shelves.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Made a touch less confrontational.

 

[labyrinth]

And you call that process 'not jumping through hoops'? Sorry, but the hoops are up, and you jumped through them. You may have thought the process worth the trouble, but you did indeed have to go through steps that should not have been necessary.

It was 2WS-Steve who said he didn't think he had to jump through hoops. And he was specifically referring to the wizard with the direct internet connection, so all he did was enter a license number, enter an email address, and click a few "Next" buttons. I don't view that as jumping through hoops, either.

What I had to do to activate WITHOUT a direct connection WAS jumping through hoops. However, with all the software I use on a day-in/day-out basis, the fact that it took me less than two minutes to complete, with no complications, make the Lone Wolf method vastly superior to many of the ones I'm stuck dealing with. And that's for the special case situation where I'm trying to activate a license on a machine with no internet connection! I just wish other software products made my life as easy when I AM connected to the internet.

Other than that, I completely respect your choice not to use AB3 and the reasoning behind it.

One last note. You made the assertion that you think they lost more users with the new licensing choice compared to the piracy potential. When the new licensing was announced, it got a lot of discussion on the Lone Wolf forums, and this assertion was made by someone. I recall one of the principals stating that they had collected concrete data that there were FOUR pirated copies of AB2 in use for every ONE purchased. He said that was what drove them to make the change. If the piracy numbers were really that obscene, I don't think Lone Wolf had a choice other than to use the new method. And if the numbers didn't improve (i.e. if they lost more customers than they gained), they probably would have abandoned the method by now (more than two years later).

In the end, the people to really be ticked off at are the a$$h@les who pirated AB2 in the first place and forced Lone Wolf to make the switch. Essentially, they ruined a great thing for all of us honest users.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

It was 2WS-Steve who said he didn't think he had to jump through hoops. And he was specifically referring to the wizard with the direct internet connection, so all he did was enter a license number, enter an email address, and click a few "Next" buttons. I don't view that as jumping through hoops, either.

What I had to do to activate WITHOUT a direct connection WAS jumping through hoops. However, with all the software I use on a day-in/day-out basis, the fact that it took me less than two minutes to complete, with no complications, make the Lone Wolf method vastly superior to many of the ones I'm stuck dealing with. And that's for the special case situation where I'm trying to activate a license on a machine with no internet connection! I just wish other software products made my life as easy when I AM connected to the internet.

Other than that, I completely respect your choice not to use AB3 and the reasoning behind it.

One last note. You made the assertion that you think they lost more users with the new licensing choice compared to the piracy potential. When the new licensing was announced, it got a lot of discussion on the Lone Wolf forums, and this assertion was made by someone. I recall one of the principals stating that they had collected concrete data that there were FOUR pirated copies of AB2 in use for every ONE purchased. He said that was what drove them to make the change. If the piracy numbers were really that obscene, I don't think Lone Wolf had a choice other than to use the new method. And if the numbers didn't improve (i.e. if they lost more customers than they gained), they probably would have abandoned the method by now (more than two years later).

In the end, the people to really be ticked off at are the a$$h@les who pirated AB2 in the first place and forced Lone Wolf to make the switch. Essentially, they ruined a great thing for all of us honest users.

You are right, I conflated your response and someone else's, not once but repeatedly. Sorry about that. (I did not reread the whole thread, but only read the newest responses, relying on fallible memory for the rest.)

I really did not mind having to have the AB2 CD in the drive in order for the program to function - it remained easily portable, so I could bung it into the drive at work and use it, then take the CD home again. It is too bad that this did not work, though I do think that a unique CD key would net more sales than the current version of the license. And I do not blame the yearly license for AB3 on pirates, but rather on simple greed - LW wants to get paid for the same program every year. Bah.

As for there being 4 pirates to every 1 purchased, my only concrete example is six players in my Mordheim group, all with legitimate copies of AB2, all bought from the same store. Not one of them has purchased AB3. (There would have been more, but LW upped the price before one of the players bought his copy, so he decided to skip it.) This is out of eight players who use computers for doing their lists - the remaining players use either a version of Access or a spreadsheet. And the six players who bought it are still quite happy with AB2.

I disagree that LW was forced into this, and I have enough exposure to the stubbornness of human nature to doubt that they will switch back, even if they are losing sales. And as I stated before if LW was to do a unique CD key for each copy, I would be a lot more interested.

As a side question, more of interest to others rather than myself, I have already made my own decision in the matter - is it possible to install the program to a thumb drive and port it from one computer to another, or is the DRM linked to the kernel?

The Auld Grump

 

[labyrinth]

As for there being 4 pirates to every 1 purchased, my only concrete example is six players in my Mordheim group, all with legitimate copies of AB2, all bought from the same store.

I don't doubt you at all. I do know that at least 50% of the players in our area were using bootlegged copies of AB2, and that was with the local store riding hard on anyone found to be a pirate, so it would have been higher otherwise. That's just this area.

I disagree that LW was forced into this, and I have enough exposure to the stubbornness of human nature to doubt that they will switch back, even if they are losing sales.

We really have no idea on this, either way. So we're both probably best off no longer asserting our theories as fact.

And as I stated before if LW was to do a unique CD key for each copy, I would be a lot more interested.

That's an EXPENSIVE option. I know someone who got numbers on this for a game he was writing. Until the quantities got huge (e.g. 25,000+ units), the unit cost was well over a dollar, and it got truly silly at more likely production sizes for a product like AB (e.g. a few thousand units). Without the economies of scale, that technology just isn't cost viable. I had also wondered why they didn't do that approach until I heard the real costs involved.

As a side question, more of interest to others rather than myself, I have already made my own decision in the matter - is it possible to install the program to a thumb drive and port it from one computer to another, or is the DRM linked to the kernel?

I don't believe that would work. The license is ostensibly tied to the computer itself and does not appear to be tied to a drive serial number. But I honestly haven't tried it, so don't quote me on that. If someone tries it and gets it to work, let us know!

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I don't doubt you at all. I do know that at least 50% of the players in our area were using bootlegged copies of AB2, and that was with the local store riding hard on anyone found to be a pirate, so it would have been higher otherwise. That's just this area.


We really have no idea on this, either way. So we're both probably best off no longer asserting our theories as fact.


That's an EXPENSIVE option. I know someone who got numbers on this for a game he was writing. Until the quantities got huge (e.g. 25,000+ units), the unit cost was well over a dollar, and it got truly silly at more likely production sizes for a product like AB (e.g. a few thousand units). Without the economies of scale, that technology just isn't cost viable. I had also wondered why they didn't do that approach until I heard the real costs involved.


I don't believe that would work. The license is ostensibly tied to the computer itself and does not appear to be tied to a drive serial number. But I honestly haven't tried it, so don't quote me on that. If someone tries it and gets it to work, let us know!

Heh, I do believe that I have stated that it is either my 'suspicion' or 'belief' or 'doubt' at most points in my diatribe, not stating them as 'facts', the only facts, as far as I know, deal with the purchases of myself and the other gamers that I know.

I am sorry that LW felt that the DRM was necessary, whether they were right or wrong. I do know that their decision influenced my buying habits. (And not in a good way.)

Too bad on the numbers needed to make CD keys work, they seemed a reasonable compromise. Heck, there are a few gamers that I suspect would be willing to buy AB2 if it were still available, just to have legal programs without the fershluginer DRM. I sometimes think that half the reason that WARMACHINE is popular with my group is that Armies of Immoren is available so easily. I know that this is why I use PCGen. It may be kludgy, but I do not need to worry about DRM. Hero Lab may be the best thing since sliced bread, but with the DRM I am not about to invest in it.

I am in the difficult position of hating both piracy and so many of the means chosen to prevent it. Between AKM (?) and Adobe the idea of limited software licenses leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

The Auld Grump

 

[Anurien]

I'm gonna take a wild guess from the post count and a few other subtle clues that Labyrinth = Rob Bowes (LoneWolf/HeroLab)

Call me suspicious....

 

[TheYeti1775]

I don't doubt you at all. I do know that at least 50% of the players in our area were using bootlegged copies of AB2, and that was with the local store riding hard on anyone found to be a pirate, so it would have been higher otherwise. That's just this area.

Personnally if a store rode me hard about having pirated copies of stuff, #1 I would ask if they ever used a VHS or a Cassette tape to make a recording without written permission. If they answer yes, simply call them a hypocrite and move on. #2 wouldn't shop there anymore. Honestly the only advantage of a brick and mortar store for me nowadays is the ability to pay cash at them and to peruse the books before buying.

We really have no idea on this, either way. So we're both probably best off no longer asserting our theories as fact.

Everyone loves to spout off statistics, at least 90% do why stop now.

That's an EXPENSIVE option. I know someone who got numbers on this for a game he was writing. Until the quantities got huge (e.g. 25,000+ units), the unit cost was well over a dollar, and it got truly silly at more likely production sizes for a product like AB (e.g. a few thousand units). Without the economies of scale, that technology just isn't cost viable. I had also wondered why they didn't do that approach until I heard the real costs involved.

Is that a $1 per unit? For quality work, I don't think anyone would mind a $1-2 increase in price of a quality product that offered 'hassle free' licensing.

Also, the same reason I don't get involved in MMORPG's that charge monthly. I have to pay a monthly subscription for something I might not even have time for that month to maintain it. That I believe is why Neverwinter Nights did so good, people could come and go as they pleased with a 'one-time' purchase minus expansion packs for it (not to mention it had a single-player mode). And yes before anyone spouts off server costs and all that and new development, I know about that. It's a business model that works for them. Though I'm at the point in my life where $15-20 bucks a month will not break me, my time has become more valuable. Between wife/kid/job/etc, is that $20 spent better on sitting my butt down and ignoring life for awhile or buying some legos for me and the kid to play together. Guess who wins in my book. So I buy software that makes me pay every year to use it 'AS IS' that to me would be a nail in the coffin for me using that product.

Yeti