Hide and Mv Silently skills are no more!

[Nail]

It's not unreasonable to expect the orc sentry to have cleared the terrain within 60' of his guard post, it would be illogical to assume otherwise.

Well....yes and no. It would be best to clear the cover....but sometimes it's not possible, or "it takes to much work". (We are talking about orcs, right?)

Finally, if the orc "guard" consisted of ten orcs, having the rogue creep up and sneak-attack -one- of the orcs was often a career-limiting decision.

Sure. But a better use to sneaking is to scout, rather than attack. Knowing where the enemy is and what they are doing can be a huge advantage...depending on your Game Master. For some DMs, tactical information is....less important to the "flow of events".

What the game really needs is some sort of % chance of noticing. ....(snip).... How do you handle that situation?

Easy: Sneak skill. Roll it once against the Spot or Sense skill of the guards. Apply the distracted penalty for card-playing orcs. Done.

You see, once again you are being confined by the legacy of the D&D system. There are not two separate actions; there's just one: Sneak. You wanna sneak by the orcs, across the open door? Then just do it => Roll Sneak, and then yer done. What's the problem?

..... because it confuses the various circumstantial modifiers (such as the +10 for improved cover) and places the burden on the observer to determine, by choice of skill to use, whether the sneaker failed to perform on one of the two tasks.

Once again: This change actually makes things easier. The rogue rolls his Sneak check, applies whatever circumstance modifiers the DM sees fit, and then the opponent rolls either a Sense or a Spot check. The observer gets to chose - usualy that'll be his highest score. The DM could also say: "You should roll a Sense check; Spot is not applicable." There's no need to tell the PC why.

"Improved cover" makes detecting a sneak-er harder, either with vision or with other senses. So...no need defining which is which.

As far as "telegraphing" that there is an invisible assasin by requiring Sense: Hey, the current system does that too. It's called Listen.

....I can tell you've rarely, if ever, used the Listen skill in your games. It should be used as often as Spot, really.

Think about it.

 

[Aaron2]

Easy: Sneak skill. Roll it once against the Spot or Sense skill of the guards. Apply the distracted penalty for card-playing orcs. Done.

This doesn't agree with the way the Sneak skill is written up in the first post which requires cover for hiding and has automatic success when being observed.

You see, once again you are being confined by the legacy of the D&D system. There are not two separate actions; there's just one: Sneak.

I don't see this in any way as a legacy issue. It makes more logical sense to have two seperate actions. Ambushers awaiting an orc patrol can't, in any sense of the word, be considered to be sneaking. Sneaky maybe. So, if you called the skill "Sneakyness", it might not bother me so much.

Once again: This change actually makes things easier. The rogue rolls his Sneak check, applies whatever circumstance modifiers the DM sees fit, and then the opponent rolls either a Sense or a Spot check.

So sneaking behind improved cover makes it harder for someone to hear you? Harder even than if you were invisible.

As far as "telegraphing" that there is an invisible assasin by requiring Sense: Hey, the current system does that too. It's called Listen.

With the current system I can call for both a Listen and Spot and ignore the one that doesn't apply. But, since I roll all Listen and Spot checks for the party, I can keep it a secret. Under the "Sneak" system, if the DM chooses to roll for the party, he has to compare the % chances of success before choosing the best skill. This is the same work that combining Hide and Move Silently is supposed to alleviate.

....I can tell you've rarely, if ever, used the Listen skill in your games.

I'm not sure why you would think this. With a Barbarian in the party, Listen is highly relied upon.


Aaron