Hide and Sneak Attack in plain sight?

[Dandu]

And do you know what the Jump check numbers are to jump over people? Surprisingly high.

Do you know what numbers can be achieved with sufficient optimisation*? Surprisingly high ones.


*Cancer Mage and Festering Anger come to mind.

 

[Greenfield]

Do you know what numbers can be achieved with sufficient optimisation*? Surprisingly high ones.


*Cancer Mage and Festering Anger come to mind.

Well, the Jump check needed to clear the head of a 6 foot man is 24, and that presumes a 20 foot running start. Since you probably can't get that 20 feet of running space in a crowd, you double that DC.

If there's more than one person between you and your target, you'll probably need to jump higher/longer. A 7 foot peak height would bump the non-running DC from 48 to 56. If you need to jump higher/farther, you're looking at significantly higher numbers, but let's stick with a DC of 56. It's a likely number.

Presume a 10 for the dice roll. That means your Rogue needs a +46 on that check.

Now figure +3 from Strength (and that's pushing it for most Rogue builds), +5 from Boots of Striding and Springing (another "must" for the fast getaway specialist), and +2 synergy from Tumble, for an obvious +10 to the check.

That leaves a +36 to account for from other optimizations.

While I have absolute faith in your ability to come up with that, I think it would be far easier to just shoot the target with a pistol crossbow and let you SA dice and a good poison do their jobs. (Knowing that the SA is questionable, because of the concealment that the crowd might offer, but the poison is going to do its thing regardless of SA.)

 

[kitcik]

Well, the Jump check needed to clear the head of a 6 foot man is 24, and that presumes a 20 foot running start. Since you probably can't get that 20 feet of running space in a crowd, you double that DC.

If there's more than one person between you and your target, you'll probably need to jump higher/longer. A 7 foot peak height would bump the non-running DC from 48 to 56. If you need to jump higher/farther, you're looking at significantly higher numbers, but let's stick with a DC of 56. It's a likely number.

Presume a 10 for the dice roll. That means your Rogue needs a +46 on that check.

Now figure +3 from Strength (and that's pushing it for most Rogue builds), +5 from Boots of Striding and Springing (another "must" for the fast getaway specialist), and +2 synergy from Tumble, for an obvious +10 to the check.

That leaves a +36 to account for from other optimizations.

While I have absolute faith in your ability to come up with that, I think it would be far easier to just shoot the target with a pistol crossbow and let you SA dice and a good poison do their jobs. (Knowing that the SA is questionable, because of the concealment that the crowd might offer, but the poison is going to do its thing regardless of SA.)

While I agree with you in general, I am currently playing a thri-kreen monk with a +69 jump check at 9th level with no magical enhancements to jump or speed.

 

[Dandu]

One level of Cancer Mage gives you infinite strength.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Would the ToB feat Martial Study to take Sudden Leap, the Tiger Claw Boost Maneuver that allows you to make a jump as a swift action, as well as tumble checks to pass thru AoO's, be helpful here?

 

[Xakk]

You could go with this. I also remember that hiding in a crowd whas specifically adressed somewhere. I thought it was in cityscape but all i could find was the hidden stalker ACF. Maybe I got confused or maybe someone else can jog my memory.

I looked at that, but we're not trying to get out of sight, just out of mind.

I thought it would be in cityscape too.

Rules Compendium p92 (and Complete Adventurer page 101)

Hide (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
You need cover or concealment to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually obviates the need for a Hide check, since nobody can see you anyway. Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you.
You can move up to half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. You can take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to hide while attacking, running, or charging.
If someone is observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. The hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible (see page 76).

Blend into a Crowd: You can use the Hide skill to blend into a crowd, but doing so conceals you only from someone scanning the area to find you. You remain visible to everyone around you, and if they happen to be hostile, they’re likely to point you out.

Move between Cover: If you’re already hiding thanks to cover or concealment, and you have at least 5 ranks in Hide, you can make a Hide check (with a penalty) to try to move across an area that doesn’t offer cover or concealment without revealing yourself. For every 5 ranks in Hide you possess, you can move up to 5 feet between one hiding place and another. For every 5 feet of open space you must cross between hiding places, you take a –5 penalty on your Hide check. Movement speed penalizes the check as normal.

Sneak up from Hiding: You can sneak up on someone after emerging from a hiding place. For every 5 feet of open space between you and the target, you take a –5 penalty on your Hide check. If your Hide check succeeds, your target doesn’t notice you until you attack or perform some other attention-grabbing action. Such a target is treated as being flat-footed with respect to you.

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then take a move action to hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

...But I guess it's in Compendium. Still, that's not being seen, and dismissed, it's more not being seen again. Though the mechanics are pretty much the same, though I would have thought edging up to someone would require Sense Motive to beat, rather than Spot.

It's a pity katanas aren't light, because then you could totally rush at your opponent, draw your katana, strike them, and have them slowly slide apart in the background after assuming that you missed.

That being said, I believe Dervishes get to treat their scimitars as light weapons, so...

Feycraft Weapon. You can do it at level 2.

As the note: Even if the target is aware of you, they're still flat footed for your first strike, if you're the one initiating combat. You can't move in and strike on that surprise action, at least you can't in a crowd since you don't have a straight, unobstructed path for a charge.

Is there any situation in which they're not? I figure if you noticed that the guy next to you might possibly be looking for a chance to kill you, you'd no longer be flat footed.

Well, the Jump check needed to clear the head of a 6 foot man is 24, and that presumes a 20 foot running start. Since you probably can't get that 20 feet of running space in a crowd, you double that DC.

If there's more than one person between you and your target, you'll probably need to jump higher/longer. A 7 foot peak height would bump the non-running DC from 48 to 56. If you need to jump higher/farther, you're looking at significantly higher numbers, but let's stick with a DC of 56. It's a likely number.

Presume a 10 for the dice roll. That means your Rogue needs a +46 on that check.

Now figure +3 from Strength (and that's pushing it for most Rogue builds), +5 from Boots of Striding and Springing (another "must" for the fast getaway specialist), and +2 synergy from Tumble, for an obvious +10 to the check.

That leaves a +36 to account for from other optimizations.

While I have absolute faith in your ability to come up with that, I think it would be far easier to just shoot the target with a pistol crossbow and let you SA dice and a good poison do their jobs. (Knowing that the SA is questionable, because of the concealment that the crowd might offer, but the poison is going to do its thing regardless of SA.)

I had to make that check once. Couldn't hop over a kobold. Those numbers shouldn't have been so high, I can vault over my friends with ease.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Have you considered the Psychic Rogue? Some of the class abilities and power selection might be able to acomplish what you're looking for.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Is there any situation in which they're not? I figure if you noticed that the guy next to you might possibly be looking for a chance to kill you, you'd no longer be flat footed.

I had to make that check once. Couldn't hop over a kobold. Those numbers shouldn't have been so high, I can vault over my friends with ease.

Initiative. Any smart rogue will have this out the wazoo. A smarter Factotum will have it through other peoples' wazoos at 4th level.

And the Jump checks typically apply for a non-willing/hindering "subject." I agree though, Jump could use a bit of redo. Or perhaps use the rules for "hopping up" and apply them to "hopping over."

 

[Tharkon]

I was wondering what the check would be to 'look inconspicuous' or 'blend into a crowd' for a PC attempting to trail or close in on another person. Is it a hide check, bluff, disguise, or perhaps Perform?

Say for instance, a rogue is about to attempt to hit a target with an Injury poison, in the middle of a busy thoroughfare, then slip away in the confusion. If the target glanced towards the rogue, whom we'll assume is not dressed like such or can be seen to brandish the weapon, what would the skill check be for the rogue to look as if he were just about his business like those around him?

It immediately strikes me as a Hide check, but the person being specifically hidden from is staring right at the person attempting to do so, perfectly aware of their location and appearance.

It could also easily be a Bluff check but the character is specifically trying not to address the target in the ways that make a typical Bluff work, such as by misleading words or gestures.

Additionally, to use the model above, if the rogue managed to get into melee range, would his intended attack catch the opponent flat-footed if they spotted him previously, and knew of his presence, but 'dismissed' him?

Acting innocuous is Bluff, opposed by Sense Motive, the target gets a penalty or bonus depending on any reason of suspecting you, or someone like you. So if you are the only Halfling in the crowd and the target knows theres a Halfling rogue in town causing trouble, he'd get +5 on his check. Bluffing is part of other actions.
Hiding the weapon is Sleight of Hand, opposed by Spot or Search, both drawing and hiding the weapon is a standard action, hiding it as a free action can be done at a -20 penalty. Baggy clothing and daggers grant a +2 bonus, shurikens a +4 bonus.
Pretending to look like someone (or something) else is Disguise, opposed by Spot check (assume they are taking 10 unless you draw suspicion), disguises take 1d3x10 minutes.
Trying not to be seen at all is Hide, also opposed by Spot, hiding is a move action and requires cover or concealment unless you can Hide in Plain Sight.

A character is flat-footed if he is unaware of the impending danger, either cause he is distracted or cause he wasn't ready for combat (which is anytime before his first turn in combat, be it during a surprise round or by rolling low on initiative).

So casually walking by, stabbing with a dagger and then hiding the dagger would probably be Bluff followed by Sleight of Hand and the target would be flat-footed. Not sure if Quick Draw will help, I feel like it should. The bluff might not even be needed if there is no reason anyone would suspect you.

 

[PureGoldx58]

on the charging in a crowd thing...Acrobatic charge from the swashbuckler can do it. Tables chairs skinny doorways, leaping off cliffs while charging, All of those are waaaaay harder than bowling people aside and diving on him assassin's creed style.