Hide armor expertise

[DracoSuave]

Exactly how is this broken exactly?

I'm not entirely convinced that this isn't just the usual 'It gives a bonus to something and is therefore broken?'

Without something like this, Barbarians and non-Int Shamans lag behind in AC, and become the worst AC possible. Given 'Use Con instead of Dex/Int' is a -very- common class feature amongst Primal Classes, I'm not entirely convinced this isn't just overreactionary BS.

Let's be honest, Barbarians had sub-par defensive capability pre-Hide Armor Mastery, and now they're broken?

I think you've serverly overestimated Barbarian Agility when compared to other melee classes that are supposed to take hits now and then, like the Avenger, or the Swordmage. Both these classes can get better and easier. And they're just fine--- (EDIT: Of course, Avenger got errata'd, but they're still really tanky. Barbarian Agility isn't -that- great, it's about as good as an Avenger can get. Swordmages of course, get errata'd to be better, and I'm cool with that.)

 

[Dice4Hire]

I agree this is blatantly broken, and class abilities should not be in feats.

Allowing eats to change things like what abilities allow bonuses to what is a slippery slope.

 

[DracoSuave]

I agree this is blatantly broken, and class abilities should not be in feats.

Allowing eats to change things like what abilities allow bonuses to what is a slippery slope.

Well, then I suppose most Multiclass feats, Ritual Caster are broken by this definition.

Oh, and Melee Training as well.

This 'class ability' is hardly unique to one class.

I mean, it'd be one thing if only Sorcerers had it, or only Druids, or even only Wardens, but let's be honest. This one class feature sees more use in class-design than Ritual Caster. This feat only shores up the classes that don't get it, but should have anyways.

 

[Atzilla]

Remember that the Ragebloods Primary Stats both contribute to the same NAD.
Before the feat, the rageblood had 3 weak defenses, only fortitude was ok.
Now he gets decent AC for the price of a feat, but will and reflex defense stay low.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, then I suppose most Multiclass feats, Ritual Caster are broken by this definition.

Oh, and Melee Training as well.

This 'class ability' is hardly unique to one class.

I mean, it'd be one thing if only Sorcerers had it, or only Druids, or even only Wardens, but let's be honest. This one class feature sees more use in class-design than Ritual Caster. This feat only shores up the classes that don't get it, but should have anyways.

I really do wish people would read my entire post, not just half or a quarter of it.

Or take it in the context of the thread.

Ahh well. Impossible dream, I suppose.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I think it's a bit overpowered, but remember that a Str+Con Barbarian who goes with Hide Armor Expertise will still have two really crappy defenses. I'm sure most DMs will find a way to get some blows in.

Of course, my current character is a Half-Orc Rageblood Barbarian who pumps Dexterity, so I won't be taking it anyway.

 

[Diirk]

Without something like this, Barbarians and non-Int Shamans lag behind in AC, and become the worst AC possible. Given 'Use Con instead of Dex/Int' is a -very- common class feature amongst Primal Classes, I'm not entirely convinced this isn't just overreactionary BS.

That's not entirely true. A normal light armour character that has a secondary stat to AC and starts with 2 18s (including racial modifiers) will get +1 at lvls 8, 14, 21 and 28 from the stat bumps. Possibly another AC from epic destiny stat boosts.

Barbarians with barbarian agility get +1 AC/reflex at 1, 11 and 13 (and another at 11 or 21 depending if you started with an odd or even dex). So essentially where they fall behind on AC (if they don't just spring for chain) is ONLY the -3 AC for lower starting dex/int (and possibly -1 for different stat boosts with the epic destiny). So -3 AC compared to other hide wearers, or -2 AC compared to leather wearers.

To make up for this, they get more hitpoints than most defenders and about double the healing surges most characters get. It was the same in 3.5: barbarians had lower AC but more hp. Honestly, I think rageblood barbarians are perfectly viable without heavy armour or the con to AC thing.

The biggest downside of the lower defenses is they get hit easier by status conditions (immobilize etc) imo.

 

[abyssaldeath]

The last time I played a Barbarian was pre-PHB2. Please take the rest of my post with a grain of salt.

With the addition of Barbarian Agility the Barbarians defense were put a a manageable level. Before that a Barbarian either had to spend a feat on Chain or sacrifice some CON to get a decent AC and/or Reflex. To offset that though my group tried out rolling stats instead of using Arrays. We rolled as a group and we voted on which set we would collectively use. I ended up being able to have a 16 in Dex without having to sacrifice any of my other stats. So as someone who has played a Barbarian with higher then normal stats I can tell you that their high HP does not completely offset their lower defenses.

 

[Mistwell]

I really do wish people would read my entire post, not just half or a quarter of it.

Or take it in the context of the thread.

Ahh well. Impossible dream, I suppose.

It looked to me like he fairly and accurately presented the point you had made. What is it about his response that you feel takes it out of proper context?

 

[DracoSuave]

That's not entirely true. A normal light armour character that has a secondary stat to AC and starts with 2 18s (including racial modifiers) will get +1 at lvls 8, 14, 21 and 28 from the stat bumps. Possibly another AC from epic destiny stat boosts.

Barbarians with barbarian agility get +1 AC/reflex at 1, 11 and 13 (and another at 11 or 21 depending if you started with an odd or even dex). So essentially where they fall behind on AC (if they don't just spring for chain) is ONLY the -3 AC for lower starting dex/int (and possibly -1 for different stat boosts with the epic destiny). So -3 AC compared to other hide wearers, or -2 AC compared to leather wearers.

To make up for this, they get more hitpoints than most defenders and about double the healing surges most characters get. It was the same in 3.5: barbarians had lower AC but more hp. Honestly, I think rageblood barbarians are perfectly viable without heavy armour or the con to AC thing.

The biggest downside of the lower defenses is they get hit easier by status conditions (immobilize etc) imo.

So what you're saying then, is that Epic Barbarians have caught up to Heroic Other Light Armor Users and therefore they're doing fine?

Let's see. If you are 3 behind, and you gain 3, that's +0. (+1 when you count the attribute adds). If you are not 3 behind, and you gain 4, that's +4.

-3 AC is NOT a small amount in this game. Barbarians start off at -3, and then end at -3.

And their hit points are not greater than most defenders; 15+Constitution+6/level is not greater than defenders, that's equal to most defenders. More importantly, it's -only one hit point more- than Avengers. It's not a huge difference.

But then, with Hide Mastery, Rageblood Barbarians can get some spectacular AC... puts them +3 ahead (but only at Epic), which is not where you necessarily want a Striker to be...

But then again...

Barbarians don't seem to have a lot of 'You missed!' reactions in their utilities either. Oh, they have a lot of 'No you didn't kill me' stuff, but not a lot to actually prevent you from getting there.

If you have a combo of abilities, and they only start getting insane at Epic, chances are the combo is not as broken as you think. Reminds me of those builds that are only mediocre until level 30, then that one ability makes them powerful. I wouldn't call that powerful, I'd call that a character who is mediocre getting one good ability and then promprtly retiring.