Hide armor expertise

[holywhitetrash]

the reason the feat is stupid is because not only is it a warden class feature and doesn't use up your multiclass with this feat a barbarian would have higher ac than a warden at epic level while still wielding a two handed weapon

 

[eamon]

the reason the feat is stupid is because not only is it a warden class feature and doesn't use up your multiclass with this feat a barbarian would have higher ac than a warden at epic level while still wielding a two handed weapon

Sure, it's not ideal. But I'd point your wrath elsewhere, namely at the barbarian's agility class feature. I think Hide armor expertise is certainly a fine feat for most builds without that class feature.

People speak of barbarians the whole time because they have this weird combo; but shamans and warlock and even invokers might benefit from this feat too. For them it's either almost a requirement to be able to play a particular supposedly standard build in the first place, or merely a optional extra (and for non-primals, there's a multiclass cost too).

If Hide armor expertise didn't stack with barbarian agility there wouldn't be much of a problem. In fact, even without hide armor expertise the whirling barbarian build (dex secondary) will exposes the AC problems that barbarian agility can cause (and theoretically, the Ref problems too - except that FRW defenses are so systematically unbalanced, you hardly notice).

 

[Diirk]

Sure, it's not ideal. But I'd point your wrath elsewhere, namely at the barbarian's agility class feature. I think Hide armor expertise is certainly a fine feat for most builds without that class feature.

People speak of barbarians the whole time because they have this weird combo; but shamans and warlock and even invokers might benefit from this feat too. For them it's either almost a requirement to be able to play a particular supposedly standard build in the first place, or merely a optional extra (and for non-primals, there's a multiclass cost too).

If Hide armor expertise didn't stack with barbarian agility there wouldn't be much of a problem. In fact, even without hide armor expertise the whirling barbarian build (dex secondary) will exposes the AC problems that barbarian agility can cause (and theoretically, the Ref problems too - except that FRW defenses are so systematically unbalanced, you hardly notice).

Shamans don't get hide proficiency so they'd need to spend 2 feats to get it... hide prof, then hide expertise. Given the stat requirements for hide are the same as chain, they're better off just getting chain instead.
Likewise warlocks need to a. get hide proficiency, b. multiclass to primal, c. get hide expertise. They're better off in leather (if you really insist on going con/cha then I guess think about chain, or live with a low AC).
Invokers start with chain anyway, so they don't even really need it.

The builds that hide expertise helps the most are ironically the ones that already get something to offset their lower AC; rageblood barbarians and battlerager fighters.

Also in reponse to the above, rageblood barbarians have higher con than defenders typically have (excluding con build wardens) so they end up with slightly more hp because of that. Admittedly its not much, but when combined with the high number of healing surges it means the barbarian can keep going for a long time even if he does take more damage.

 

[Saeviomagy]

And their hit points are not greater than most defenders; 15+Constitution+6/level is not greater than defenders, that's equal to most defenders. More importantly, it's -only one hit point more- than Avengers. It's not a huge difference.

Only if you ignore the fact that the barbarian will be able to pump his constitution with very little downside. Most characters cannot afford to do that.

Then there is the fact that the avenger tends to be widely regarded as pretty low on the damage-dealing front.

Is your point that it's ok for the barbarian to sit at striker-level damage and defender level surges and defenses?

 

[Runestar]

Only if you ignore the fact that the barbarian will be able to pump his constitution with very little downside. Most characters cannot afford to do that.

The downside is that he does so in tandem with str, and both benefit the same defense.

Is your point that it's ok for the barbarian to sit at striker-level damage and defender level surges and defenses?

What defenses? A barb with good str/con will have crappy dex and abyssmal mental stats, meaning his reflex and will defenses will be tantamount to "auto-fail", compared to other classes which typically have 2 decent defenses and 1 auto-fail. He simply has a decent fort defense and AC. High hp and surges only go so far to preventing him from being a stain on the ground. He needs the AC to plug that gap in his weakness.

 

[eamon]

The downside is that he does so in tandem with str, and both benefit the same defense.



What defenses? A barb with good str/con will have crappy dex and abyssmal mental stats, meaning his reflex and will defenses will be tantamount to "auto-fail", compared to other classes which typically have 2 decent defenses and 1 auto-fail. He simply has a decent fort defense and AC. High hp and surges only go so far to preventing him from being a stain on the ground. He needs the AC to plug that gap in his weakness.

Well, in theory perhaps. In practice, because FRW defenses tend to so commonly be terribly anyhow, I don't find this to be a particularly realistic trade-off. Any FRW targetting monster can generally already choose from several party members it'll trivially hit, and even "high" defenses tend to be fairly poor (certainly generally more that 2 below AC).

So, if a DM really hit PC's as hard in the NADs as in AC, FRW targeting monsters would be a TPK recipe. Because it is fully expected that FRW are hit so very commonly, a DM designer can't really use it as a balancing factor because of the heavy collateral damage. Basically, if monster group is balanced to be challenging on the assumption that they hit 50-60% of the time vs. FRW, then even very optimized groups will succumb if they just happen to have the wrong mix of defenses (or if the monsters have a choice of FRW attacking powers). So, generally, encounters need to be balanced under the assumption that they hit even more frequently.

It's a downside, but it's not nearly as serious a downside as the numbers at first glance suggest. It's nice to have high defenses of course, but even a character that had 3 terrible defenses would remain playable as is.

 

[Mengu]

Then there is the fact that the avenger tends to be widely regarded as pretty low on the damage-dealing front.

As of today, with Painful Oath, this statement is not quite so true as it was for paragon and up.

 

[mneme]

In fact, Painful Oath helps a lot in Paragon, and Hand of Divine Guidance helps a -lot- -- letting Avengers effortlessly get epic-level enhancement to their crit-fishing abilities rather than having to jump through hoops to get even
a modest increase (or go Jagged, but Jagged is subpar at Epic, and not -that-
amazing at paragon).

 

[Saeviomagy]

What defenses? A barb with good str/con will have crappy dex and abyssmal mental stats, meaning his reflex and will defenses will be tantamount to "auto-fail", compared to other classes which typically have 2 decent defenses and 1 auto-fail. He simply has a decent fort defense and AC. High hp and surges only go so far to preventing him from being a stain on the ground. He needs the AC to plug that gap in his weakness.

And the same goes for a fighter who prioritises str/con, only moreso, because the fighter doesn't get a freebie boost to his reflex save.

Incidentally, painful oath looks like more of the same stupid one-feat-to-rebalance-a-class garbage that hide expertise was, only this time it's in a dragon article.

 

[Runestar]

And the same goes for a fighter who prioritises str/con, only moreso, because the fighter doesn't get a freebie boost to his reflex save.

Then maybe the answer is to introduce a similar feat for fighters (and any other class who suffers from such a scenario), rather than ban the hide expertise feat simply because other classes don't get it.

Though to be honest, I have yet to see a fighter who maxes out both str and con, or at least, pay as much attention to it as a barbarian.