Hide in Plain Sight - DM Advice

[Crust]

Hey, all. How do you folks run hide in plain sight at your tables? What are some of the ways your players have applied it in combat? I've never DMed a player with hide in plain sight before, and I wanted some tips or advice concerning player use so it's not abused.

The player in question is a big NWN fan, and I'm worried that he's going to doggedly assume that his PC (a ranger) can hide at any time, regardless of the conditions (which must be "natural," I know), desiring to use it just like it's used in NWN (attack/hide immediately/attack, repeat). I don't want him thinking that he can just "go invisible" at any time, especially since his hide ranks are almost ALWAYS going to be way higher than most foes' spot checks. I'm afraid it might break my campaign.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Nikroecyst]

I've never had to worry about it due to the fact that Rangers are not popular where I come from ; ) However, if I had to it would probly be something like in Patriot Games where the sniper is practicing an pops up outta the grass right next to the general after hitting all the targets. "How did you get that close son?"
"By being a sneaky son of a bIch sir!"
His body armor and clothes naturally blend into the enviroment so that when he kneels down, he dissappears. Its not that great of an idea but at least its simple to run.

 

[Pbartender]

Hey, all. How do you folks run hide in plain sight at your tables? What are some of the ways your players have applied it in combat? I've never DMed a player with hide in plain sight before, and I wanted some tips or advice concerning player use so it's not abused.

The player in question is a big NWN fan, and I'm worried that he's going to doggedly assume that his PC (a ranger) can hide at any time, regardless of the conditions (which must be "natural," I know), desiring to use it just like it's used in NWN (attack/hide immediately/attack, repeat). I don't want him thinking that he can just "go invisible" at any time, especially since his hide ranks are almost ALWAYS going to be way higher than most foes' spot checks. I'm afraid it might break my campaign.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

Here's what I'd advise... don't worry about it too much. Remember, if he's a Ranger with this ability, that means he's a 17th level Ranger. It's entirely appropriate for a character of his level to be able to do that sort of thing. By this time, your Wizards and Sorcerers have been Greater Invisibiitying themselves for a long time, which a much, much more powerful ability.

In other words... Let him have his fun. He's 17th level. His character should kick some ass.

Now, practically, there's a one other thing to remember... First, "It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging." Even at 17th level, that's a huge penalty (at level 17, it'll effectively negate his ranks in Hide, if he's maxed it out), and will give most enemies a chance to see him, if he tries to use the tactic you describe above.

 

[Razz]

Just don't tell him about the feats Able Sniper from Races of the Wild and Concealed Ambush from Dragon Magazine (can't remember which issue). The first grants +4 to Hide when sniping and the last cuts the penalty in half (-10).

 

[airwalkrr]

Pbartender has the right idea. Hiding while attacking gives you massive penalties and they should be enforced, regardless of whether a video game enforces them or not.

Here are some things to keep in mind:
-Hiding is done as part of movement unless one is sniping, and even in this case, it requires a move action. It is best to interpret this as meaning hiding always requires at least a move action.
-Remember that creatures can use other senses to detect invisible creatures. A hiding character who cannot move silently is susceptible to being easily pinpointed with Listen checks. Listen checks are normally a move action, but a creature receives a free Listen check at the beginning of his round to detect invisible creatures (don't forget you can still take a move action to make the check if you fail the free one). The Listen DC to detect an invisible creature is in the DMG on page 295. The DC varies, but it is typically easy to detect an invisible creature who is in combat (DC 0). Beating this DC by 20 allows a character to pinpoint the invisible creature.
-Glitterdust and faerie fire make it very difficult for creatures to hide. Spellcasters should be wise to use these spells on creatures who like to ambush.
-A creature who has been struck by an invisible opponent knows where the blow came from. This allows the creature to target the invisible creature with a 50% miss chance.

 

[Crust]

Here's what I'd advise... don't worry about it too much. Remember, if he's a Ranger with this ability, that means he's a 17th level Ranger. It's entirely appropriate for a character of his level to be able to do that sort of thing. By this time, your Wizards and Sorcerers have been Greater Invisibiitying themselves for a long time, which a much, much more powerful ability.

In other words... Let him have his fun. He's 17th level. His character should kick some ass.

He's actually a NG male half-orc werewolf (long story) ranger 3/stalker of Kharash 3 (Exalted Deeds), and he gets hide in plain sight as a 4th level stalker, much earlier than a typical ranger.

Now, practically, there's a one other thing to remember... First, "It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging." Even at 17th level, that's a huge penalty (at level 17, it'll effectively negate his ranks in Hide, if he's maxed it out), and will give most enemies a chance to see him, if he tries to use the tactic you describe above.

So, the ranger can essentially roll a hide check at any time he/she has cover or is in a natural enviroment, suffering a -20 penalty if being observed? He/she can't just disappear into thin air with a hide check. That about cover it?

 

[airwalkrr]

So, the ranger can essentially roll a hide check at any time he/she has cover or is in a natural enviroment, suffering a -20 penalty if being observed? He/she can't just disappear into thin air with a hide check. That about cover it?

Not quite. He does not suffer the penalty for being observed. Normally, you can't hide at all while being observed. He can only do it because he has the Hide in Plain Sight ability. He suffers the -20 penalty while attacking, running, or charging.

 

[Crust]

Not quite. He does not suffer the penalty for being observed. Normally, you can't hide at all while being observed. He can only do it because he has the Hide in Plain Sight ability. He suffers the -20 penalty while attacking, running, or charging.

So once he attacks, during the next round he can simply roll a regular hide check and vanish, only to reappear once he sneaks in and delivers another full round attack... and repeat the same process indefinitely? He still needs cover, right?

 

[brehobit]

So once he attacks, during the next round he can simply roll a regular hide check and vanish, only to reappear once he sneaks in and delivers another full round attack... and repeat the same process indefinitely? He still needs cover, right?

No cover is needed as I understand it. As airwalkrr mentioned, I'd require a hide check to involve a move action. So you can't full-attack each round.

Mark

 

[airwalkrr]

So once he attacks, during the next round he can simply roll a regular hide check and vanish, only to reappear once he sneaks in and delivers another full round attack... and repeat the same process indefinitely? He still needs cover, right?

His turn would look something like this, assuming he started within attacking range.

Standard action - attack bad guy
Move action - hide at -20

At this point, he could either stay within range of the bad guy, or move away. If he moves away so that he is no longer threatening, his next turn would look like this.

Next turn
Move action - hide (no penalty), move back into range
Standard action - attack bad guy

At this point, he will be visible until his next turn, when he can take a move action to hide. By the same token, if he makes a full attack, he will be visible until at least his next turn unless he has a marshal ally granting him a free move action.

Note that a bad guy can also ready an action to attack when the hiding character is visible. This basically means they start trading single attacks. So whoever has a better single attack will come out on top overall.

One thing I dislike about Hide in Plain Sight is that it is different everytime you see it so it works differently each time. The shadowdancer or assassin does not require cover, only a shadow within 10 ft. A ranger does require cover, and it must be in natural terrain on top of that. A stalker of Kharash can hide anywhere, but he still requires cover or concealment (I find the last part problematic since it means he can hide if he merely has a blur spell or similar condition). Ruling that the cover or concealment cannot somehow emanate from him would be reasonable.