Hide in plain sight - overly powerful?

[Gaiden]

I was just thinking about tactics thieves used in 2e and was trying to figure out how to construct a character using fade tactics - hit and hide - rinse and repeat.

If you have a character who has at least one level in shadow dancer and the expert tactician feat and that character wins initiative, he is practically invincible.

I say this because he can hide every round and consequently his opponent will never see him to attack him. Consider this:

No surprise
SD wins initiative attacks with expert tactician, takes double move at half speed for hiding to hide in plain sight while moving 30 ' away from opponent.

Opponent does not know where SD is and has to guess - within a radius of 30'. Next round SD continues to hide in plain sight and moves next opponent with double move.

Opponent still does not know where SD is.

SD then attacks - opponent caught flat footed - again - gets exp tac - does double move - rinse and repeat.

Limitations are that there has to be shadows within 10' of the shadow dancer for him to do this.

Seems awfully powerful. Opponent is going to have to blind sight, scent, tremorsense, true seeing, spells like glitterdust or faerie fire, or a high spot for this not to work.

Combining some OA prestige class abilities giving up to +30 to hide makes this combat tactic crazy powerful.

Am I missing something or is this just a really cool tactic waiting to be abused with SA, iajutsu, and deep impact?

 

[Geoff Watson]

The opponent is NOT flatfooted again. They are only flatfooted at the start of the battle.

Opponent should Ready an action for when the SD reveals himself.

Expert Tactician has been errataed to only allow Attack actions, rather than any partial action. I still think it is too powerful.

Geoff.

 

[dvvega]

If you check the text of Hide in Plain Sight, you will find it is a Supernatural Ability.

Supernatural Abilities (as per PHB) require a Standard Action to activate. So a Shadowdancer can activate it then move, but cannot attack the same round.

 

[Gaiden]

Two questions:

First is whether or not hiding in plain sight requires a standard action to activiate. The description for Su abilities in the MM says that Su abilities require standard actions to activate unless otherwise stated. Hide in plain sight says that you can hide while being observed. Hide is a free action. Therefore, I would think, hiding while being observed is also a free action. If you had to bluff for a diversion to hide, that is a different story. But you are simply using the hide ability, which does not require a standard action.

Second question relates to opponents being flatfooted. Being flatfooted occurs at the beginning of combat. Couldn't one consider the attacks that occur by SD against the unaware foe always initiate a combat. After all, I gave the example of the SD attacking once every other round. But there seems no reason why the SD could not just sit in the shadows and observe his opponent for some X amount of time and then attack outside of the round scheme - reinitiating combat causing new intiative and another surprise round.

Lastly, the readied action requires the opponent to know where the attack is coming from. If the opponent does not know about the attack until it strikes him, I don't think he could ready an action for the attack - maybe right after the attack.

 

[nameless]

You can't necesarily ready an action to attack him before he hits you, but nothing is stopping you from readying an action after he hits you. And an intelligent combatant would probably use that attack to disarm, sunder, trip, or grapple the spring attacking goober. If he noticed that the shadowdancer was "melding" into the shadows, which isn't that big a stretch, the guy being whupped could simply leave the area of shadows, or light a torch.

Its an effective tactic for a few strikes, but after the opponent wises up, the shadowdancer better pull out some new tricks. Possibly an illusion spell to cover his retreat/repositioning, or a coordinated attack of strength-sapping shadows. The shadowdancer is a decent combatant, but a mid-to-high level foe doesn't become a mid-to-high level by being unable to adapt to adverse situations.

-nameless

 

[dr_nukem]

You may find some different opinions regarding what type of an action Hide is. Many would argue that it is not a free action, rather a standard action (to hide) as using a skill is a standard action unless otherwise stated.

We've had a very large discussion in our group, dvvega being one of our members. This discussion is not over yet (mainly because my opinion hasn't won the day yet).

Given that, we have come to a general concensus that HiPS is a SU ability and therefore takes a Standard Action to activate. In activating, I mean Hiding while being observed. So, our group has agreed that you could not HiPS and attack in the same round...much to my Shadow Dancer PCs dismay...

 

[Gaiden]

unless you have expert tactician

 

[CRGreathouse]

unless you have expert tactician

Or haste.

 

[Gromm]

In response to the title: Only if its really dark alot.

We had a shadowdancer in our party a while back, and while it was great to be able to turn invisible at a whim, it didn't always do him much good. During the day he had to work to get to any shadows, and enemies knew where he was.
"He just ran under that overhang and disappeared!"
"Well go over there and get him."

The biggest problem our DM had was that he practically had to map all the shadows on a given map to see where he could run and hide at any given moment. Once an enemy casts daylight or something similar its pretty much over in most cases.

Though I admit it could be abused with spring attack and boots of S&S, the odds of someone hiding as they run out of cover and not being seen are pretty small in most cases (situational penalty for hiding in a lit area cant be good).

 

[dvvega]

Gaiden: Hide is not a free action.

In the PHB it states that most skills require a standard action, move-equivalent action, or full round actions. Some take no time at all since they're part of movement (like Jump and Tumble).

Now if you read Hide, carefully, you will note it speaks about Hiding, and that the character MAY move up to half movement rate at no penalty. Nowhere does it say that Hiding takes no time at all (A Free Action). The implication is that Hiding is at the least move-equivalent, because you do it while moving (even 0 feet).

IF Hide were a Free Action, then using the Free Action rules, one could Hide while Attacking, Hide while casting a spell, Hide while doing anything else since it is a Free Action.

Obviously my above examples are abusive but that's to make the point.

So either Hide is Standard or Move-Equivalent.

If you read Song and Silence, pg 36, Tailing

Tail Someone: Since the Hide skill allows for movement, you can use it as a move-equivalent action or part of a move action if desired.

It goes on about the mechanics of using Hide to tail someone, showing how you must use move equivalent actions to follow them while still Hiding.

Hide In Plain Sight allows you to perform Hide even under direct observation. So you can state that Hide in Plain Sight is a supernatural ability that allows you to attempt a Hide under direct observation (DC -20 note the ability does not lower penalties).

Thus you could argue for Move Equivalent use of Hide in Plain Sight.

Thus if it is Move Equivalent, you cannot Spring Attack with Hide in Plain Sight on both your approach and departure ... Spring Attack specifically states you may MOVE before and after your attack action. You have only one MOVE action for Spring Attack, you can only Hide in Plain Sight once. So you move up to the opponent while Hiding (better make sure the shadow is next to them because the minute you leave it you're visible) and attack them, but that's it ... you've already broken your hiding.

Using the logic that the Supernatural Ability Hide In Plain Sight is a Move Equivalent Action because Hide is. You cannot have two Move Equivalents with Spring Attack. In fact no matter what you do, you can't attack and stay hidden on approach and departure in a normal round unless you are Hasted.