Hide in plain sight - overly powerful?

[kreynolds]

I think being able to hide at all is too powerful. All characters, NPCs, and monsters should be required to wear dayglo hunting vests.

 

[Abraxas]

Actually our method is not a house rule.

Its based on the following from the PH and DMG-

1) Hiding while being observed is impossible.
2) The HiPS ability makes hiding while being observed possible.

There is no mention of any penalty to the hide check when using this ability. When using HiPS there is no need for the character to distract the person/persons he is hiding from - he simply hides.

The -20 penalty you propose is a house rule. I do not believe the rules state or imply a penalty should be imposed.

I can understand why someone might want a penalty when using this ability but we (to date) have not seen any problem with our read on the rules.

 

[dr_nukem]

Abraxas: what you have described is a house rule. The HIPS ability says you may use HIDE even under direct observation. It does not say that you can use HIDE at no penalties under direct observation.

Hmm...I don't see where it specifically states that *THERE IS A PENALTY* either. Your arguement can be used against you...and is thus, pointless.

It's a good house rule if it works for you, however it makes HIPS an overly powerful ability since it's an unmodified Hide check versus the Spot check.

Overly powerful? I think not. It's at least an 8th level ability (10 ranks in hide req), will not always work (opposed roll), and can only be used in specific circumstances (10' within a shadow).

 

[dr_nukem]

From the mouth of Monte...

From: "Monte Cook" <montejcook@attbi.com>

Q:
Our group has been discussing the Shadow Dancer prestige class a lot lately. In particular, how the Hide in Plain Sight ability works. I received some clarification from The Sage regarding what type of action it is (basically same as hide, which is part of a move or move equiv action).

What I'd really like to get clarified is whether or not this ability
requires that you hide *IN* the shadow or simply *WITHIN* 10' as the description states. Was the original intention to simple use the shadow to"feed" the SU ability, or to actualy hide in?

A:
You don't actually hide "in" the shadow. It just sort of enables it.

Q:
Also, how would Lowlight vision or Darkvision affect this ability? Would it negate it completely as both of these abilities would technically negate any shadows?

A:
Darkvision or lowlight shouldn't affect hiding, even this kind of hiding.

Monte

Just thought I'd share...

 

[Forrester]

I think we pretty much accept that LLV and DV shouldn't negate hiding -- the question is, do you need actual shadows to hide in?

If everything is absolutely pitch dark, there are technically no shadows, and the Shadowdancer is screwed. (If you play it by-the-book).

 

[jontherev]

I think we pretty much accept that LLV and DV shouldn't negate hiding -- the question is, do you need actual shadows to hide in?

If everything is absolutely pitch dark, there are technically no shadows, and the Shadowdancer is screwed. (If you play it by-the-book).

Screwed? Not unless he doesn't have the normal Hide skill...

 

[Forrester]

Screwed? Not unless he doesn't have the normal Hide skill...

How is the normal Hide skill going to help when he's in the middle of a cavern surrounded by two dozen half-dragon bugbears?

I will type slower so you can understand my point .

Many creatures have Darkvision.
Many of these creatures live in the Underdark.
Many places in the Underdark have NO LIGHT AT ALL -- not even ambient light from glowing fungi.

In this environment, because there are no shadows, it seems to me that if you play by the book, a Shadowdancer can't use her HiPS ability.

Meaning she will indeed have to rely on her regular "Hide" ability, which is often going to be useless. Not because "Hide" is useless against those with Darkvision, but because normal hiding is *often* useless.

That is to say, a Shadowdancers defining ability seems to me to be often completely and totally negated in the Underdark, unless she brings a light source with her to *make* shadows.

And if she's of an Underdark race, this is pretty silly.

That's all. I've decided to play it that there are "shadows" even when there are no light sources around -- goofy, but I can't think of any other way to not screw the Underdark shadowdancers.

 

[dr_nukem]

...
Meaning she will indeed have to rely on her regular "Hide" ability, which is often going to be useless. Not because "Hide" is useless against those with Darkvision, but because normal hiding is *often* useless.

That is to say, a Shadowdancers defining ability seems to me to be often completely and totally negated in the Underdark, unless she brings a light source with her to *make* shadows.
...
That's all. I've decided to play it that there are "shadows" even when there are no light sources around -- goofy, but I can't think of any other way to not screw the Underdark shadowdancers.

No shadows = no HiPS. That's definitely true.

So, as you point out, it's all about whether there are shadows in the dark or not. *I'd* say that complete darkness = complete shadow. *I'd* define a shadow as an area with less or no light.