Hide in plain sight - overly powerful?

[DM_Matt]

I dont see the big deal here. Remember that any ol' 7th level wizard can provide someone with something a lot better than hide in Plain sight by casting improved invisability...not need to take special prestige classes, use tons of skill points, etc. A combat rogue with that cast on him (standard procedure for high level parties) will be abl to do this at least as well, especially if he has spring attack, or, another ubiquitous spell at high levels, haste.

 

[dvvega]

In regards to the Darkvision Question ...

(HIDE = Hide Skill, HIPS = Hide In Plain Sight supernatural ability)

You cannot HIDE under any form of observation, so if you're within the Darkvision range of the opponent in question, forget HIDE.

Low Light vision would be worse for the Rogue in question, because vision range is effectively double for any source of light. So the party of humans at the campfire (about 30 to 60 feet of sight from light then darkness) is prey to Rogues, while the elf with them can see them.

HIPS allows the use of HIDE even under observation with considerable penalties. So at first it would seem that HIPS would be appropriate versus Darkvision using opponents. However, if you are in total darkness, are there really any shadows about? Some thoughts:

1) If there were no shadows in darkness then why would any underground races ever develop sneak rogues? We can see the classical stereotypes here: Dwarven Locksmith, Gnomish Tinkerer ... do they have the traditional thief amongst them? Perhaps this is why those stereotypes exist.

2) In a pseudo evolution, there is always ambient light somewhere. Even in most deep undergroun caves you have light coming from phosphorescent materials such as fungi, or beetles, or other genetic mutations. Even an underground stream can carry a light's reflection for a distance (as the light refracts within the top of the water - it's not too far but you can do it with certain wavelengths of light). The deeper you go, the more chances of things that give off their own light. This could account for general darkness and pools of "extra darkness". However the biggest disadvantage is that the deeper you go into a cave system, the more reliant on touch and sonar the creatures get. So most of them would end up with Blindsight. If I remember corrently, in the old 2e rules, Drow eyes actually glowed red in the dark because they were generating their own heat wavelengths to use their 120' infravision. They basically bounced heat rays off their surrounds which gave them sight.

So if you accept (1) Shadowdancers are useless anyway, since they can't HIPS and if they were out of the darkvision range then they could just use HIDE anyway.

If you accept (2) then everyone can use all their abilities, and it fits into a fantasy world more smoothly.

As an aside, why would a Shadowdancer even go underground. They seem more of the stealthy spy/assassin types, more suit for contracts in a city.

 

[dr_nukem]

In regards to the Darkvision Question ...

(HIDE = Hide Skill, HIPS = Hide In Plain Sight supernatural ability)

You cannot HIDE under any form of observation, so if you're within the Darkvision range of the opponent in question, forget HIDE.

Low Light vision would be worse for the Rogue in question, because vision range is effectively double for any source of light. So the party of humans at the campfire (about 30 to 60 feet of sight from light then darkness) is prey to Rogues, while the elf with them can see them.

HIPS allows the use of HIDE even under observation with considerable penalties...

An interesting opinion. I wonder if the original intent of the feat was to HiPS against anything or just creatures without Lowlight or Darkvision. Seems to be kind of a waste if that's true...

If you opt for the interpretation that HiPS doesn't work vs LL or DV opponents, it severely limites the feat...severely.

Again, what's the purpose of the shadow? Does the SU ability require the shadow to hide in or to "feed" the power if you will. If you say that the SD needs the shadow to physically "hide" in, then I would agree that LL or DV would simply cancel this ability. (read, that would suck).

If the shadow is required as a source for the SU ability, and NOT to hide in, then LL or DV would have no affect on the ability. It's a supernature spell like ability. Does LL or DV work with the Darkness spell? Nope...If you went with this train of thought it wouldn't affect HiPS either.

You could also say that it's a SU ability and is not limited to the vision of the opponent...that just doesn't seem quite right though.

If you take option 1 then it's a very weak prestige class and not very cinematic. I believe option 2 is much more along the lines of what was originally intended...and then just poorly written/explained.

Oh yeah, what's this "considerable penalties" bit?

Nukem

 

[dvvega]

nukem: "considerable penalties" means the -20 for hiding under direct observation. I count that as considerable simply because you have to roll a 20 to even start getting a good result.

A Darkness spell cancels ALL vision so your use of that as a proof against DV or LLV isn't really valid, since no one can see in there.

Personally I would use my (2) option, allowing all abilities to work as they're written in all conditions, as long as the shadow is there for the Shadowdancer to use - you can ignore the method of shadow use in this instance, because if there are no shadows, the Shadowdancer cannot use the ability anyway. So having to jump into the shadow or not, no shadows = no HIPS.

So it depends on the light sources available. You can light a room with multiple light sources that cross over each other and come from all directions, and this would negate ALL shadows in the room. So anyone paranoid of Shadowdancers could do that with magical light ... poor bastard isn't going to get much sleep though. Maybe that's why those eye patches were invented

And yes HIPS is limited to the vision of the opponent ... why? Because you don't use it unless someone can see you ... otherwise you'd be able to use your normal HIDE.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Hide doesn't allow hiding while observed sure. But if you can move and get out of direct view of the perosn observing you can hide, and if you use bluff you can cause a distraction and then hide. The 1st one assuming 30' of movement is very easy in many environments, in cities etc, it may take a round or two but turn a corner, outside, duck behind trees, hills, bushes etc. The 2nd well can be easy or tough, depending on the dm. But assuming this version of bluff takes a standard aciton and is not somehow combined into one huge movement, bluff, and hide action al you do is bluff+move+hide at-10. By the time any rogue I built was high enough level to be a shadow dancer neither, of those skill results would be below 20, which should be good enough under most circumstances.

 

[Abraxas]

originally posted by dvvega
nukem: "considerable penalties" means the -20 for hiding under direct observation.

Where is this penalty listed? I see a -20 for running or charging, but not for being observed.

 

[dr_nukem]

nukem: "considerable penalties" means the -20 for hiding under direct observation. I count that as considerable simply because you have to roll a 20 to even start getting a good result.
...
Personally I would use my (2) option, allowing all abilities to work as they're written in all conditions,
...

Well, at least we agree on something. I too prefer option 2. :-D

WRT the -20 bit, I see your point. HiPS says that you CAN hide under observation, but it doesn't say it should be easy. -20 seems a bit steep though, I see this as being a DM call as to how carefully the opponent is watching you. Casual observation, say -5, someone watching your group but not the SD specifically ... or in a mass combat situation , say -10, someone specifically watching your (SD) every move or fighting you 1 on 1, -20.

 

[dvvega]

The -20 isn't completely a DM call.

1) HIDE is impossible to do under observation
2) There is a -10 on HIDE if you bluff and run around a corner
3) HIPS allows you to HIDE even under observation

now from (1) we know it's impossible to HIDE in observation, HIPS allows you to do this impossible thing, even if you are under that observation.

standard "impossible" adjustment is -20.

It is more than -10 because that is the modifier for a bluff and run HIDE attempt.

 

[Abraxas]

Actually the -20 adjustment is for "nearly impossible" tasks.

The group I game with has come to a different conclusion regarding the Hide skill and the HiPS ability.

From the PH: "If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or something so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went."

My group separates this from

"If your observers are momentarily distracted (as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is at –10 because you have to move fast."

In the first case we apply no penalty if the hiding character can get completely out of sight before hiding (using a move and hide or move+move and hide sequence of events) Since the character is no longer being observed, he doesn't have to distract his opponent, so no Bluff check is needed, and he can hide normally. A pursuing enemy knows the hiding character went around the corner but doesn't know where he went after rounding the corner - thus no penalty.

In the second case, the character can't get completely out of sight with a single move so he distracts his opponent and makes a short move (= to 1 ft per rank in hide) combined with the hide action. Since the hiding character's opponent is only distracted and not really no longer observing the character the -10 penalty is applied.

Now on to HiPS - in our game we apply no penalty to the Hide check when using this ability because it is a supernatural ability to make the impossible possible. The character just hides - a now you see him now you don't sort of event. This ability is an exception to the "while being observed rule" and requires no distraction to work so no penalty applied.

 

[dvvega]

Abraxas: what you have described is a house rule. The HIPS ability says you may use HIDE even under direct observation. It does not say that you can use HIDE at no penalties under direct observation.

It's a good house rule if it works for you, however it makes HIPS an overly powerful ability since it's an unmodified Hide check versus the Spot check.