High-CR Monsters: How Tough is Too Tough?

[ptolemy18]

Hello everybody,

My player-characters (a group of 6 people, who are now an average of 5th level, going on 6th level) are doing pretty well; recently they've been defeating all the enemies I throw at them without even a single PC getting knocked unconscious. (They defeated 8 CR 3 Forlorn Husks (from SANDSTORM), which I thought might have been an excessively dangerous encounter... but the cleric managed to turn most of 'em, so they were saved by the old "cleric factor.")

Because I'm just that kind of DM, I'm thinking of upping the ante again. Specifically, I'm thinking of some encounters which are not necessarily combat-focused, but which will put them face-to-face with excessively dangerous opponents.... whom they might have to outwit rather than just kill. I'm talking tactics/stealth/role-playing challenges, rather than mere "a wandering monster attacks you" challenges. For instance, having to match wits with a CR 11 giant or wizard, neither of whom are "out to kill" the PCs, but who the PCs have to encounter for one reason or another. The kind of encounters where, if the PCs *start* fights, they might get their butts kicked, but they don't necessarily *have* to fight to accomplish their goals. (Like, for instance, say that the party has to steal/get something from the CR 11 wizard, who's just defending his property.)

Since D&D (particularly 3.X) is so skirmish-combat-focused, there aren't many guidelines for setting up not-necessarily-combat encounters with super-powerful opponents. I don't want to kill the PCs, but I do want to challenge them, and I'm prepared if a PC or two dies due to overconfidently attacking their super-powerful foes. How often do other DMs set up encounters like this? Does anybody have recommendations for running encounters like this? (Including "don't do it"?)

Jason

 

[Zappo]

My PCs encounter higher CR people and creatures all the time; generally, they say 'good day' and walk past, or they talk for a while, purchase what they need, and so on. Not everything you meet is an opponent.

But I think you mean encounters in which these high-CR beings are actually opposed to the PCs in some way. In your example, the PCs have to steal something from the wizard. This can be done, but there must be good plans. Not only on the PCs' part.

You should be prepared in case a fight does happen. Some DMs feel that if the PCs were dumb enough to get into a fight with an opponent they knew was superior, they deserve to be slaughtered. That's fair enough, but personally I'd rather avoid a TPK. So try to make sure that either a fight is exceedingly unlikely, for example because the wizard isn't actually home right now, or that if it does happen the PCs have at least a chance of escaping. Maybe an enemy of the wizard will decide to attack the tower in exactly that moment, giving the party a chance to flee.

 

[technophile]

I would be cautious about this. You have to gauge your players, decide if they can identify that the challenge is beyond them, and maybe even nudge them in that direction. I have a relatively 'beginner' level group and they nearly died several times because they decided to take on challenges beyond their level.

 

[Kurotowa]

Here's a quick checklist of things to do when planning high-CR non-combat encounters.

1. Make sure you and your players all know you're not doing an all Diablo style game where every enemy is there to be engaged in battle. It's an easy mindset to fall into with D&D.

2. Make sure your players recognize the high-CR foe for what it is. It's all too easy for them to default to combat when that's what they're used to. Tell the druid or ranger with the high K: Nature just how strong that giant is (and use OOC terms to make sure your understand each other). Put in stories of how powerful the wizard is and let the PC's with Spellcraft recognize some of the spells involved. If you want them not to start a fight they need to know it isn't the best choice.

3. Reward creativity. There are very solid rules for how hit someone with a sword until they're dead, rules both players and DM have to play by. Once you move over to tactics and guile and fast talking, the result is almost entirely at the whim of the DM. If you want your players to use them you have to reward and encourage them when they do. That means you go along with their ideas, you give even the semi-plausable ones a chance of success, and you start by rewarding even token efforts with good results. Build up to greater complexity.

 

[Haltherrion]

Since D&D (particularly 3.X) is so skirmish-combat-focused, there aren't many guidelines for setting up not-necessarily-combat encounters with super-powerful opponents. I don't want to kill the PCs, but I do want to challenge them, and I'm prepared if a PC or two dies due to overconfidently attacking their super-powerful foes. How often do other DMs set up encounters like this? Does anybody have recommendations for running encounters like this? (Including "don't do it"?)

Jason

I do this fairly often. Couple points to keep in mind:

1) If you have established a pattern of easy, no brainer encounters, it is a little unfair to the players to suddenly whack them with something hard. Players adapt to their referee and if you suddenly change your style, sure, you can come up with a good rationalization, but you are really simply changing the rules on them. Killing a PC in such a circumstance is a bit mean. Expect the players to resent it. Perhaps even to the point of sabotaging the campaign.

2) So... don't be sudden about this. Establish in a few non-lethal situation that things are going to be ratcheted up. Depending on your style and the players, you could even simply warn them out of game. "Look, guys, I'm going to change the game style a bit here and throw some encounters at you that you really might be better off handling with care." If you prefer in-game cues (or both), you can lead with a few lethal encounters where allies save them from death at the last minute, or the bad-guys pull their punch for some reason (although be careful with pulled punches, it can make you look bad).

3) Developing the last sentence above: if you are going to use tough encounters, once you have established the base work for a truly tough encounter, don't cop out. if the PCs get themselves killed, let them get themselves killed. If you cop out, you will diminish your stature as a ref and lose everything you were no doubt trying to achieve with a more leathal encounter.

4) But don't kill them all unless you just want to stop your campaign (and perhaps not be asked to ref again ). One or two dead PCs is a great way to establish mortality as long as it doesn't seem arbitrary (see point #1). Killing the whole party usually just pisses off everyone and wrecks all your hard work in creating and running the campaign. In a very lethal encounter it is wise for you to consider contigencies ahead of time that can keep the entire party from dying. These contingencies can include allies coming to the rescue, some event that separates the foes (staff retributive strike sends foes or PCs elsewhere), foe takes prisoners, etc. One of my favorites is to have an undefined magic item in the PCs possession. An example is crystal dragon figurine: PCs know if they break it, it summons a dragon. How big a dragon? Why there is no way to know until you use it. As a ref, if the players use it when the party is about to wiped out, you can make the dragon big enough to save the survivors. If they use it at a poor time, you can give them an ill-tempered wyrmling. Of course, this must be very sparingly used but the beauty of it is that in many cases the players will *never* use it and you never have to tip your hand.

5) Alternately, you can slowly increase the encounter difficulty. This will avoid the sudden change of style but takes lots of patience on your part.

 

[Timeron Malachi]

In D&D, you shouldn't be all that worried about the party losing a member, because there's always Ressurection.

In Star Wars, I am always willing to hand out those Dark Side points for similar effects..."oh, you'd drop to -10 wounds from that shot...take 3 Dark Side points and you won't die."

They think they're going avoid the shot, then they just end up at -9, and still have to roll to stablize.

Something I did when I wanted to increase encounter CR, was have the PC's have nightmares, actually...especially when I was going to have a major event happen. One PC had a nightmare where a bone ooze attacked him when he was alone.

Another had a nightmare where everyone was turning into ooze...he ran and ran, and he finally got to a cliff, looked out towards the ocean, where he was going to jump to escape them, and he saw the entire ocean was ooze.

That put the fear of God into the PC's for a session or two.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

A couple of options.

Throw hard to kill monsters at them, but don't make them oner round deadly. Make it obvious that the monster will out last them.

With the above example of stealing from a high level wizard, think like the wizard. He would know well and good that a handfull of decent combatants could drop him in a single round, so he would run at the first available option. Toss up a wall of fire, or for a cleric, mass hold person, and then run/dimensiondor/teleport. If he happens to be evil, or just ticked at being attacked, add a round of damage causing spells, or leave behind a summoned monster or two.

The same works if the PCs are involved with opposing factions that are not nessecarily evil. Two rival families might want outsiders to help in their fued, but might just have the PCs arrested as opposed to killed. Less legal hassle, which would be more important to them than the PCs themselves.


The point is is you can hurt the PCs in the first encounter to impress upon them that they are out of their league, but do so belivably without killing them.