High Crit Weapon Used as Implement

[logopolis]

Suppose you have a Swordmage that's using a fullblade (heavy blade, high crit) as his weapon/implement.

1. If he scores a critical hit using Sword Burst (implement attack), does he do the extra high crit damage?
2. What if he scores a critical hit using Spidersilk Slash (weapon attack, fixed dice damage)?
3. What if he scores a critical hit using Lingering Lightning (implement attack, [W] damage)?

 

[Minirogue]

Spidersilk Slash: It has the weapon keyword, it uses the weapon's high crit property.

The other two as implement attacks are trickier. It could go either way. I would say that RAW and maybe RAI are probably going to say no, but I don't see why it wouldn't make sense if they did...except that it's high crit property comes from it's immense size, which may or may not affect the implement attacks (bigger blade might have bigger lightning coming out of it)

 

[keterys]

I suspect RAI might disagree with RAW on this one, but I think what's written is on PHB p217. 'High Crit: A high crit weapon deals more damage when you score a critical hit with it...'

Given that swordmages use their sword for all of their attacks, weapon or implement, and the enhancement bonus applies to either type of attack, and the same exact critical damage line is added to both types of attack, and even Weapon Focus applies to all of those attacks, I'd have to say that high crit applies to all of them.

I'd be curious if there's a rule that stipulated otherwise, perhaps in the PH2's rewritten appendix definitions for implement powers or something similar (anyone have access to that at the moment?).

Anyhow, that's the ruling I gave for my game that has a swordmage in it.

 

[N0Man]

I'm going to have to disagree with Keterys this time, based on the very same quote that he referenced.

A high crit weapon deals more damage when you score a critical hit with it. A critical hit deals maximum weapon damage and an extra 1[W] at 1st–10th levels, an extra 2[W] at 11th–20th levels, and an extra 3[W] at 21st–30th levels. This extra damage is in addition to any critical damage the weapon supplies if it is a magic weapon.

This definition clearly indicates the High Crit occurs when you score a critical hit with "it", which is "a high crit weapon". Again, it increases the weapon damage, which doesn't effect powers that don't include the Weapon keyword. Along those lines, Implement powers are not affected by [W] damage.

Even with the Swordmage, his powers are clearly labeled as to which are Implement powers and which are Weapon powers. Even though the implement and weapon may be the same item, they are treated differently as to how the rolls are resolved.

Your blade adds its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls and any extra damage granted by a property (if applicable) when used as an implement. You do not gain your weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll when using your blade as an implement.

The High Crit property is not applicable. You aren't hitting with the weapon during an implement attack, and you aren't dealing [W] damage.

 

[FireLance]

My rules sense is that the high crit property on a weapon is usually balanced by:

1. A lower weapon proficiency bonus
2. A lower damage die

None of the above apply to an implement power, and only the first applies to a weapon power that deals fixed damage. I'd say it's a definite no for implement powers, a definite yes for weapon powers that deal [W] damage, and I would decide on weapon powers that deal fixed damage on a case by case basis.

In this specific case (spidersilk slash with fullblade), the weapon proficiency bonus is already about as high as it can get, and the default flavor of the power doesn't indicate that the weapon actually touches the targets (not a key factor, but a supporting point). On balance, I'd say the high crit property doesn't apply.

A related question is: would you allow the brutal 1 property of a khopesh or kukri to apply to the damage roll from spidersilk slash, since the brutal weapon property only mentions "the weapon's damage" and does not specify damage from weapon dice?

 

[BobTheNob]

My rules sense is that the high crit property on a weapon is usually balanced by:

1. A lower weapon proficiency bonus
2. A lower damage die

None of the above apply to an implement power, and only the first applies to a weapon power that deals fixed damage

Bingo

 

[keterys]

Best yet, do you allow brutal to work on Spidersilk or Lingering Lightning

To clarify my RAW vs. RAI statement - I'd be extraordinarily willing to make guesses on RAI for brutal and high crit here, I was only saying what seemed like RAW since it's counter to what I'd have said it would logically be...

Then again, I'd never have guessed that Weapon Focus applies to Sword Burst or Iron Armbands of Power to Sweeping Blow, either...

 

[Dice4Hire]

Man, oh Man, do I hope AVII clears all this up.

 

[Ryujin]

Weapons used as implements also apply their properties to attacks. For this reason, and the fact that 4e is meant to be fairly simple in the way the rules are applied, I would say that a high crit weapon would retain that property when used as an implement.

 

[franzel]

I'm going to have to disagree with Keterys this time, based on the very same quote that he referenced.

The High Crit property is not applicable. You aren't hitting with the weapon during an implement attack, and you aren't dealing [W] damage.

I think you are hitting with the weapon during an implement attack. If you weren't, then weapon focus could never apply its damage bonus to an implement attack made with a weapon, and yet we know it does due to FAQ #21. Therefore, I don't believe that the weapon attack v. implement attack argument applies in this case.

The text in the High Crit property that is interesting to me is the one you highlighted as well, namely

A high crit weapon deals more damage when you score a critical hit with it. A critical hit deals maximum weapon damage and an extra 1[W] at 1st–10th levels, an extra 2[W] at 11th–20th levels, and an extra 3[W] at 21st–30th levels.

Our group ruled that you have to deal some weapon damage in order to apply extra weapon damage on top of it. That rules out almost all implement attacks (besides ones like Lingering Lightning in the poll above) and some weapon attacks. Basically, if you deal [W] damage, you apply the high crit. In all other cases you don't.