High level 3e magic item purchasing... when does enough become too much?

[Piratecat]

Re: Joke!

Oh, and a comment: Looking at the Defenders' character stats (from the old rogues gallery boards) I begin to see your concerns. Given how much teh Defenders kick a$$, I was expecting them to have a monty haul load of magic items. But for level 14-18 characters, they are actually reasonably modest...

Ironically enough, Sagiro argues (correctly, I believe) that the Defenders are far less combat optimized than an average group of their level. I tend to agree with him, as they're partially optimized for social interactions, and largely optimized against undead. We'll have the other character sheets up in the next week or two!

This has turned out to be a really interesting thread for me. I'll be interested to see how the Defenders' magic items stack up against baseline cash expectations from the DMG.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I haven't run into this situation yet, but if I can offer a suggestion

Most of the magic items in your campaign seem unique and specially crafted items. Although it would mean extra work for you, I would think that the best option would be to get the Defenders to say the *kind* of thing they are looking for rather than specifics ("Velendo wants something to bolster his weak constitution", "Tao feels that her AC is too low" etc).

Then it would be up to you to craft 1-3 possible items which meet those broad desires (to a greater or lesser extent). This would be much better than a DMG shopping list approach, which would seem a little strange.

This would give you the advantage of allowing them to find nicely crafted things which might have an additional beneficial side effect which they hadn't expected, nicely crafted things which have a bit of history to them (which might provide leads or threats in the future) and so forth.

That's the way I'd like to handle it if my players ever reach the upper levels anyway.

Cheers

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

In my campaign world, there are very few places where magci can be bought (above the 500 gp level at least) and even they have limited availability of expensive items (BTW, I like the idea of having Sigil be a place where very good stuff can be bought - I may have to steal that or do something similar).

I like Plane Sailing's suggestion of making several items, and letting the PC's choose which ones to buy. I also think its important to develop the sellers as best as possible.

 

[Tzarevitch]

I think I'd like some advice.

The PCs in my game are 14th-18th level, they've got a reasonable amount of cash, and they're going shopping. In general they're not shopping for extremely powerful items; more for a variety of medium power devices targetted to make up for their weaknesses or boost their strengths. The PCs have never had unlimited access to magic items, as a person can usually only buy magic in Sigil and the continent's largest cities. Now, though, the group has access to plane shift, gate, teleport without error, wind walk, and a host of powerful travel spells that let them go to where the rare magical markets are. In addition, they can use divinations to find out the best place ot head to find the items that they want.

In addition, they're making items now, using their feats to create useful low-cost items.

This isn't inherently a problem, but it feels awfully odd; for the first time, the accessibility of items is partially out of my control, assuming I follow the rules that I've created my campaign around. Part of me says, "Don't worry. They can't use too many things in one round," but it still feels odd.

Anyone else run up against this? How'd it work out?

Thanks!

Magic (and psionic) items are rare in my campaign and there is no real mass market for them. I repeatedly have to explain to the PCs, "The wealthy merchant doesn't want your magic/psionic item in trade. He can defend himself more practically with his bodyguards than with that +5 magic spear you are trying to sell him."

Honestly, I thought WoTC was on crack when they refer to a market in magic items. Who exactly comprises this market? Most magic items are only useful to other adventurers (and there can't possibly be all that many adventurerers in any given world - unless there is a world out there which has ruins that continually spawn magic and gold to support all of them).

Certain select few magic items with commercial applications are readily saleable to nearly anyone but most of the time the PCs are stuck with their magic unless they can find another group of adventureres to trade with. If they want an exotic item they must make it themselves or contract with someone to make it as a special order (and then pay whatever that person wishes to charge.)

In my campaign, the various psionic academies are the only ones who sell either magic or psionic equiptment. They sell low grade psionic items such as masks of language which have practical applications. (Mostly they contract their services like the PsiCorps in Babylon 5). They never buy magic/psionic items back unless it is something unique or VERY rare. (Also, the PCs don't know it yet, but the academies tag and register every item they make so they can locate and identify them at all times).

Tzarevitch

 

[Aaron L]

I would say that the market is adventurers selling magic items to each other. And it would be an underground market, not illegal per se, but you would have to do some looking and sniffing around to find things to buy.

 

[Shallown]

I agree with several of the posters that this should be an effort to find things on the party's part, not impossible by any means but sometimes there are several things that can mess them up for example... asking questions around town/city alerts enemies to your presence and to a smart enemy your plans; enemies can plant "trap" type of an item something they made to "get" the Party they could become effectively "bugged";

Second If they make the items for themselves you can evil GM and interrupt or at least make events progress in a way were they wish they hadn't been tied up. Guilt is a powerful tool.

Burning experience is not nice and in its own way a balancing item, never allow them to get rid of it maybe share it with another party member through a feat or spell but not get rid of it.

You still control the market, As someone suggested make a few items for whatever needs they have, add on some small misc. abilities to drive the cost up a little and you can do fine while still showing Flavor and influence of your campaign world.

I am running character in Return to the Temple and we are 2-3 levels higher and 2-3 characters over what is needed to clear out most of the foes we encounter, so we almost always end up with items and things we don't need or want (If I find another cloak +1 of resistance I'll puke) So we end up selling everything every few weeks and spending a week to a month making items and finding items to buy as well as commissioning items to be made. (Which as a side note watch out for cheap skill boosting items, Rogues just love them). So half our treasure becomes items we can use and we still manage to get some decent stuff. Since my character acts as accountant and quartermaster I make sure the group comes first and then individual needs. I think the nicest thing is we can slowly upgrade our own weapons, armor and such instead of always trading in for new stuff, it gives the items a little history.

Well I hope that helps

 

[Urbanmech]

I really think that some magic items should be available for purchase, if you don't do this all of the party's monentary treasure is pretty much useless from an adventuring standpoint. The current game that I play in has reached 14th lv, and the purchasing of magic items and item creation beyond scrolls/potions is not allowed. Because of this any monentary treasure is useless to the nonspellcasters and might as well be copper for all the fighter and rogue care.

Not allowing magic item purchasing also places a pretty big burden on the spellcasters to make sure the combat types stay competive, Bulls Str, Endurance, Cats Grace, Magic Vestment and others can make up for a lacking in the item department. Item purchasing makes up for the parties weaknesses and also will free up versitility in the casters spell selection.

Just don't let your players run willy nilly through the DMG pretending it is the hall of infinite treasure (not that I think your players would), keep an eye on what they are trying to buy. But let them reap some of the awards of being a highly successful charismatic clever adventuring band. Shopping in Sigil can be a short adventure itself.

 

[Enkhidu]

I have to say, this thread is one of the better one's I've seen in the past few weeks, because it highlights what I've always seen as a weakness in the 3rd Ed idea of game balance throughout levels...

In my experience, the amount of magic (whether via spells or items) in a campaign is inversely proportional to the amount of directional control a DM has in a campaign. P-kitty said it himself, that he was only getting a little worried about the purchasing of items after the travel options opened up for the party. To me, that means that he, as a DM, has been quite comfy with the magic level in the campaign up til now (and, I must say, that's no mean feat in a 10+year campaign). It also means that the more magic the party gets its hands on, the less control over plot direction P-kitty will have (remember the Modron March, P-cat?)

However, that's not necessarily a bad thing...

From everything I've read in your story hour, Piratecat (and I've been a faithful reader since the beginning), you really enjoy when your players suprise you. Also, your group seems to be a mature group, and seem to have a firm grasp from a player's perspective on what will and will not be fun - I would expect them to try to get and keep an edge on the opposition, but I wouldn't expect them to purposely try to create game breaker combos. So, as far as that goes I wouldn't worry so much.

One last thing...

One of the absolute RatBastardish things a DM of mine once did was to have a long term behind the scenes enemy funnel the party magic items. We received them from conquered foes that seemed to weak to have such items, hoards of treasure, gifts from grateful nobility, and purchase. And many of them were set to either not work at all on their creator (the enemy behind the scenes), or be under their creator's control (same villian).

In this way, he was able to make sure that many of the items we were able to get our hands on could be tested out in campaign, and could be easily eliminated with an encounter with the enemy (boy howdy did we hate that guy when we fought him the first time after getting all those items...). We quickly got rid of/destroyed all of the tainted items as soon as we got a chance.

 

[Doctor Doom]

From what I understand, you're not worried about specific purchasing and stuff like that. I agree. Your characters are powerful globe-planar travelers with access to powerful spells and magic. I don't think limiting what they can buy is the right way to go. Let them revel in being high level characters, they've earned it.

You already noticed one thing you can do, which I'll stress. Don't gloss over the purchasing of the items, even if it is easy for them to move around. That way lies the Dark Side, wherein DnD becomes like a computer game. Keep the interactions with the people selling the items interesting, and keep the items unique. Even if it's Just a Ring Protection +1, use specific descriptions and give history to the items.

As for how their character's will play after this, there is nothing wrong with tossing a few 'test' battles there way. Part of the job of GM is to be able to gauge the character's power level to be able to tailor the challenges accordingly. After one of these shopping sprees it can be difficult to tell just how a character will stack up (it's a lot of change in a relatively short amount of time for the character, kinda like going up a level). Work some test challenges into the storyline and see how the characters react, how they use their new abilities, and what new weaknesses and strengths they have.

Good luck!

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: Joke!

Charged and one use items (potions, scrolls, wands, staves, etc) are pretty much available for cash. So are low level (+1 or +2) weapons and armour. Everything else becomes much more complicated (quests, etc)...

My PCs (see Story Hour, plug plug) are constantly pouring money into the temples of the God of Commerce, because his priests are willing to sell their services - indeed, it's pretty much a holy sacrament for them. No cleric, so I pretty much had to make healing potions and the like available on the market for them to survive.

Scrolls are also commonly available, of course - they're quick, easy, and cheap to make.

Anything past that is rare or unusual to be found on the market. One character was able to purchase a wand with starting money because of his connections with the Wizard's Guild, and one NPC wizard hired some folks to, ah..."retrieve" a magical staff for him. Aside from that, occasionally cash-starved adventurers will show up with something they've dredged up, but most items are created on a commission basis with the bulk of the value paid up front.